What I learned from Bobby's video, primarily, is that FemShep's voice actor is good. And DudeShep's is not.
//EDIT: What I also learned is that I'm not nearly as observant as I should be, and that BioWare may have orchestrated the single most extraordinary mindfuck of all time.
//EDIT 2: My mind broke when the video pointed out the "oily shadows" from the Rachni queen, and the shrubs/trees suddenly appearing near the beam after Shepard "regains" consciousness.
Ok, now you're not indoctrinated, but the Reapers aren't dead, you very nearly are, and the entire world is about to end.
If it's all indoctrination, remember, you never got up to the Citadel, so that choice never happened, so all the Reapers are still sitting right outside.
Not saying it's not accurate - it's an incredibly compelling interpretation, and I daresay correct - but the remaining implication is even more tragic than the alternatives.
Ok, now you're not indoctrinated, but the Reapers aren't dead, you very nearly are, and the entire world is about to end.
If it's all indoctrination, remember, you never got up to the Citadel, so that choice never happened, so all the Reapers are still sitting right outside.
Not saying it's not accurate - it's an incredibly compelling interpretation, and I daresay correct - but the remaining implication is even more tragic than the alternatives.
Garrus' got your back
and Tali, Liara, Anderson, Ash/Kaiden, Javik, EDI, Joker....
It took you and an entire goddamn armada to kill the ONE Reaper on Rannoch. You and 6 people gonna take down the other thousand hangin' out above Earth?
It took you and an entire goddamn armada to kill the ONE Reaper on Rannoch. You and 6 people gonna take down the other thousand hangin' out above Earth?
If the theory is correct then the Crucible still hasn't done whatever it is designed to do.
Hell, if the theory is correct, the Crucible could just turn the Citadel into one master Reaper. It's also still closed, and you have no way of getting up there - you better believe they'll defend the shit out of that beam once their indoctrination attempts failed.
The more I think about indoctrination theory, the more I love Bioware for what they've done. They've orchestrated a space tragedy of incredible proportions. One that fools the player in the same way in-game characters are. Both feel the effects of indoctrination. So good.
The more I think about indoctrination theory, the more I love Bioware for what they've done. They've orchestrated a space tragedy of incredible proportions. One that fools the player in the same way in-game characters are. Both feel the effects of indoctrination. So good.
>implying the theory is true
I hope it is but I think assuming this is what will happen might be hoping to hard.
Also more fuel for indoctrination. No idea why the link isn't clickable.
Why not just assume indoctrination theory is true? It's viable, it lines up with almost every aspect. Until we know more (lol DLC), might as well roll with it.
Gamers are a pessimistic, entitled bunch. The current outrage has presented no finer an example. I see the indoctrination theory as the optimistic side of the coin, and it's undeniably logical, so it's what I will choose to believe.
Players are presented twice with the opportunity to shoot the Elusive Man, and it is presented as the renegade option both times. First before Anderson is "killed," and again after his corpse hits the floor.
Mass Effect spent two games and 60-80 hours vilifying the Elusive Man, and for good reason: his indoctrinated mind plunged humanity deep into a bad, bad place when the Reapers came knocking. He aided and abetted the destruction of humanity, in point of fact.
Why, then, is it the renegade option to kill him? Why is it still a renegade option after he "kills" Anderson, your most trusted friend and ally? Where is the Paragon option?
We must accept that this particular scenario does not match any other moral judgment that Shepard had to make at any point in the previous games. It was always about the continuum: the Paragon choice, the neutral choice, and the renegade choice.
From Saren to the Collector Base to Kai Leng, Shepard's morality did not suffer a blow when choosing to destroy these clear and present dangers. What makes the Elusive Man so different, even though he's the clearest and most present danger this side of the Reapers throwing a hissy down on terra firma?
Perhaps an indoctrinated mind is the difference. We, through Shepard, have struggled to stay on a righteous path in the face of horrific events and tough choices. Sovereign knows that, too. And when faced with cognitive dissonance or emotional crisis, humans double down and cling harder to their own beliefs: Renegade is bad. What better way to manipulate us into assisting the Reapers than by presenting us with the one option we are most likely to avoid?
And when the Elusive Man's corpse hits the deck, Sovereign or the Star Child once again deceives us. The language used to describe the choices frames them in our mind, preying on our inherent aversion to genocide. Synthetics will die, he says! Synthesis is the only way to avoid a holocaust! Destroying the Reapers--the destiny you've suffered immensely to fulfill, mind you--is the worst option!
We believe these statements because Sovereign has architected an immensely brilliant mindfuck. Because Sovereign's cold calculations don't value the handful of qualities that could be considered a weakness by an unfeeling machine: our love, our compassion, our morality.
We have compassion for the Geth. We love EDI. We want to do the right thing. All of these became weapons of our own destruction.
I just noticed something that nobody else has yet pointed out. In The Arrival DLC, when you are knocked unconscious before the Argos Rho Reaper artifact, you are presented with the true forms of the indoctrinated scientists. They have glowing yellow eyes.
When Harbinger suddenly flies off after allegedly hitting you with his beam, leaving you what we now believe to be unconscious, he too has glowing yellow eyes.
Ok while I think we all want the Indoctrination theory to be true so we know we didn't get worthless ending and a meaningless 90+hrs of gameplay. Think about what this means from our standpoint. Yes, it could be the most awesome mind fuck a video game and it's developer has ever pulled. But it also means Bioware/EA have deliberately given us an incomplete game so that they can charge us more to finish it.
This worries me. We've already paid 60USD for this game, DLC averages about 10-15 per, for something like Arrival, Shadow Broker, and Javik. So for just a simple ending, what might be the actual ending to the game we're gonna have to pay another $10. This is further emphasized by the DLC comment the game ends on. This is robbery; even if Indoctrination Theory is real, and I doubt it is/was (might be now depending on how Bioware plays this off). I want the actual ending to my game with my game, not with DLC.
Pretty sure it mentions in Bobby's video that Blue is Renegade and Red is Paragon when in indoctrination phase.
Control - You can't control the reapers when they are already controlling you. There is a vision of TIM trying to do this. Even Shepard says "So the Illusive Man was right."
Synthesis - Saren went down this path. 60% of you went down this path. Trolololol
Destroy - Star Child IMMEDIATELY vanishes when you pick this option. Shepard wakes up. The dream is over...or has it just begun.
Even if BioWare provides an epilogue through DLC, I don't care. An ending that leaves much and more to my imagination is as compelling to me as one that's spelled out. This thread alone was worth the money.
I'm not saying that the game isn't worth $60 I'm just saying I don't like the idea of being charged an additional $10 just for an ending. That's a very slippery slope. Either we're going to get an ending through DLC or Bioware has decided to make the Trilogy into a Saga. That would actually make me stupid happy if we could get one more game out of Mass Effect.
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ChoochK-Pop authority™, Pho KingMadison Heights, MIIcrontian
As I am reading this thread the only thing I can think is that we could make a podcast about this XD
RE: Thrax's two posts - those are two incredible points that I hadn't considered. Shooting Illusive Man with the renegade option mind-tripped me so hard that BOTH TIMES it popped up, I didn't go for it. Anderson died, and then I was killed. I had to re-load and go through the entire sequence again.
I'm about 95% convinced of the indoctrination theory at this point. There's just too much evidence. Too much about it that makes it right.
It really blows my mind to consider what the game does in its final hour. The mind games it plays with you, especially if you roll paragon, is substantial. The renegade option of shooting Illusive Man, the colored choices at the end pushing you from the destroy option, offering a third, harder to get option that doesn't truly bring a best end, trusting the child we know acts for the reapers because we feel Shepard's guilt... This stuff is incredible.
I can't believe a video game did this to me. This is the definition of immersive. We feel indoctrinated ourselves, because as we played it, we had no idea that this manipulation was happening to us.
And I would agree, I don't feel that the ending is incomplete, and I'm glad that closure is left to the imagination. It was the only real way they could end a game like this. Every person playing these games built their own stories around their own Shepards. It's practically impossible to make a concrete, detailed ending while appeasing all of these gamers. I'm fine with what they've done.
Though you're also right, @koreish. It's obvious by the ending message (and it's EA we're talking about) that they're going to milk this ending out for gamers via DLC. I don't want them to do it, but they've already confirmed that they're going to do it. I'm not going to play these DLCs. I'm keeping my ending intact.
If they release more gameplay and story beyond Shepard waking up from indoctrination and try to charge for it I think the backlash from it will be stronger than the rage they're already dealing with. Unfortunately this probably won't stop people from paying for it, even those who would be truly furious about it. Sad to think that what is potentially the most ingenious thing they've done with the series might also double as a way to exploit their customers (again). If this theory turns out to be true and they release the rest of the story for free it might be enough to win me back over my disgust with the multiplayer setup. If they charge for it however they will only have solidified my decision, I'll just watch it on youtube.
If it's a free DLC and they didn't include the ending proper so that people could make their decisions; possibly wrong decisions. That would actually be a fucking brilliant move but again, I doubt that EA would allow for free DLC. Places like Xbox Live charge you just to post DLC, so the chances of it actually being a free DLC is pretty slim.
Comments
//EDIT: What I also learned is that I'm not nearly as observant as I should be, and that BioWare may have orchestrated the single most extraordinary mindfuck of all time.
//EDIT 2: My mind broke when the video pointed out the "oily shadows" from the Rachni queen, and the shrubs/trees suddenly appearing near the beam after Shepard "regains" consciousness.
Ok, now you're not indoctrinated, but the Reapers aren't dead, you very nearly are, and the entire world is about to end.
If it's all indoctrination, remember, you never got up to the Citadel, so that choice never happened, so all the Reapers are still sitting right outside.
Not saying it's not accurate - it's an incredibly compelling interpretation, and I daresay correct - but the remaining implication is even more tragic than the alternatives.
and Tali, Liara, Anderson, Ash/Kaiden, Javik, EDI, Joker....
hell I dunno, gotta wait for DLC
This is fun.
The more I think about indoctrination theory, the more I love Bioware for what they've done. They've orchestrated a space tragedy of incredible proportions. One that fools the player in the same way in-game characters are. Both feel the effects of indoctrination. So good.
Wonder when all the haters will be over their indoctrination...
I hope it is but I think assuming this is what will happen might be hoping to hard.
Also more fuel for indoctrination. No idea why the link isn't clickable.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QT4IUepvrU1pfv_B95oQj0H84DlCTUmzQ_uQh1voTUs/preview?pli=1&sle=true
Of course I can't wait for Mass Effect 3: Episode 1 either...
Players are presented twice with the opportunity to shoot the Elusive Man, and it is presented as the renegade option both times. First before Anderson is "killed," and again after his corpse hits the floor.
Mass Effect spent two games and 60-80 hours vilifying the Elusive Man, and for good reason: his indoctrinated mind plunged humanity deep into a bad, bad place when the Reapers came knocking. He aided and abetted the destruction of humanity, in point of fact.
Why, then, is it the renegade option to kill him? Why is it still a renegade option after he "kills" Anderson, your most trusted friend and ally? Where is the Paragon option?
We must accept that this particular scenario does not match any other moral judgment that Shepard had to make at any point in the previous games. It was always about the continuum: the Paragon choice, the neutral choice, and the renegade choice.
From Saren to the Collector Base to Kai Leng, Shepard's morality did not suffer a blow when choosing to destroy these clear and present dangers. What makes the Elusive Man so different, even though he's the clearest and most present danger this side of the Reapers throwing a hissy down on terra firma?
Perhaps an indoctrinated mind is the difference. We, through Shepard, have struggled to stay on a righteous path in the face of horrific events and tough choices. Sovereign knows that, too. And when faced with cognitive dissonance or emotional crisis, humans double down and cling harder to their own beliefs: Renegade is bad. What better way to manipulate us into assisting the Reapers than by presenting us with the one option we are most likely to avoid?
And when the Elusive Man's corpse hits the deck, Sovereign or the Star Child once again deceives us. The language used to describe the choices frames them in our mind, preying on our inherent aversion to genocide. Synthetics will die, he says! Synthesis is the only way to avoid a holocaust! Destroying the Reapers--the destiny you've suffered immensely to fulfill, mind you--is the worst option!
We believe these statements because Sovereign has architected an immensely brilliant mindfuck. Because Sovereign's cold calculations don't value the handful of qualities that could be considered a weakness by an unfeeling machine: our love, our compassion, our morality.
We have compassion for the Geth. We love EDI. We want to do the right thing. All of these became weapons of our own destruction.
When Harbinger suddenly flies off after allegedly hitting you with his beam, leaving you what we now believe to be unconscious, he too has glowing yellow eyes.
Ya see where I'm goin' on this one?
This worries me. We've already paid 60USD for this game, DLC averages about 10-15 per, for something like Arrival, Shadow Broker, and Javik. So for just a simple ending, what might be the actual ending to the game we're gonna have to pay another $10. This is further emphasized by the DLC comment the game ends on. This is robbery; even if Indoctrination Theory is real, and I doubt it is/was (might be now depending on how Bioware plays this off). I want the actual ending to my game with my game, not with DLC.
I don't know, just my two cents.
Control - You can't control the reapers when they are already controlling you. There is a vision of TIM trying to do this. Even Shepard says "So the Illusive Man was right."
Synthesis - Saren went down this path. 60% of you went down this path. Trolololol
Destroy - Star Child IMMEDIATELY vanishes when you pick this option. Shepard wakes up. The dream is over...or has it just begun.
I want the Bioware Mass Effect team to make all games now
But we got hope.
I'm about 95% convinced of the indoctrination theory at this point. There's just too much evidence. Too much about it that makes it right.
It really blows my mind to consider what the game does in its final hour. The mind games it plays with you, especially if you roll paragon, is substantial. The renegade option of shooting Illusive Man, the colored choices at the end pushing you from the destroy option, offering a third, harder to get option that doesn't truly bring a best end, trusting the child we know acts for the reapers because we feel Shepard's guilt... This stuff is incredible.
I can't believe a video game did this to me. This is the definition of immersive. We feel indoctrinated ourselves, because as we played it, we had no idea that this manipulation was happening to us.
And I would agree, I don't feel that the ending is incomplete, and I'm glad that closure is left to the imagination. It was the only real way they could end a game like this. Every person playing these games built their own stories around their own Shepards. It's practically impossible to make a concrete, detailed ending while appeasing all of these gamers. I'm fine with what they've done.
Though you're also right, @koreish. It's obvious by the ending message (and it's EA we're talking about) that they're going to milk this ending out for gamers via DLC. I don't want them to do it, but they've already confirmed that they're going to do it. I'm not going to play these DLCs. I'm keeping my ending intact.