I suspect some frustration points are there for a reason: some folks are so good at playing the game that they become frustrated because it is too easy. The frustration points change the game to cause the particular kind of difficulty to be different than the patterns previously solved. I, myself, having poor eye-hand coordination never completed Unreal, and so turned me off from even trying Unreal Tournament.
Great read, I could talk about this topic all day long.
If I had to narrow it to one single awful frustration point in any game. The old foggies here might remember RC Pro Am on the Nintendo Entertainment System.
RC Pro Am invented the "rubber band AI" and it played very, very dirty get to about level 20 or so, it became freaking impossible. Still a gem of a title, worth playing, but the rubber band AI is awful
Getting tied up and tossed into the dungeon on Kings Quest 5 only to find out you lose because you didn't realize you should have saved that mouse from the cat earlier in the game.
Great point, Cliff - I didn't even think of cheating AI, but that certainly fits the topic! For example, it's impossible to ignore how badly the AI cheats at the higher difficult levels in the Civilization series.
I do find it unbalancing in games occasionally when the bosses or end-levels in the game are so much more inordinately difficult that some players will simply quit. Some games even do it with every boss in the game. However, I think your examples are very different from one another. The catacombs in U8 are, in my opinion bad design, as you say. However, the purple coins in Galaxy are not. You did beat the game, and you are going for something extra. The game designers specifically made that game in such a way as you do not have to complete everything to win. They do this specifically because they wanted to include a very wide range of game type and difficulty, but did not want to force everyone to play every piece in case some of it was boring or too hard for them (personally, I gave up on trying to revisit all the worlds forthe flying coins because I was bored with it). The reason you are frustrated is because you've given yourself ad different goal. You decided that you did want to complete everything. You can't blame the designers if you get frustrated because you changed the goals of the game for yourself. You would get just as bored or frustrated trying to get the Ultimate weapons in any FF game or trying to find all the pigeons in GTAIV... those are extra material designed forthe people who can/will handle them. It's specifically not for everyone, and I don't think that's bad design personally...
However: I can think of a few examples of bad design. The one most fresh in my head is the end of Prince of Persia: Two thrones. I played through that whole game with a growing appreciation for the mechanics. The learning curve was perfect the whole way... Until I got to the final boss, who was simply so hard, and required such exact, skillful use of the Prince's talents, it simply wasn't possible for me to beat him at the skill level I had reached. I consider that bad design, but I don't know how universal that experience was, because I've never talked to anyone else who's played though it.
Another example that comes to mind from times long past is Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father. An old point-and-click adventure game from Sierra. On day four, I reached a point where I couldn't figure out what to do. I spent hours and hours and hours visiting each location, talking to each person, but I could not figure out what the game expected me to do next. The character is investigating a murder, and I got to a point where I had no more clues to follow, but the day wouldn't end (like it had in the past when I'd found all the clues for that day). Finally, after many hours, I went to the game store, and bought the hint-book for the game (this was before gamefaqs.com or anything like it). I finally figured out that in the park that the player walks through to get form one side of town to the other, there is a single gray pixel at the base of one tree, and I'm supposed to notice and click on that one pixel, which is a lost earing, and my next clue. In my anger, I threw the hint book across the room, then took the floppy diskette out of my drive and threw it out of my window, never to be retrieved. I've never been more angry with a game designer than I was that day, and it still gets my rankles up whenever I think about it.
Exactly as you say, CB, I wasn't bringing in two similar examples, I was putting together two dissimilar examples of types of frustration points in games.
In my anger, I threw the hint book across the room, then took the floppy diskette out of my drive and threw it out of my window, never to be retrieved. I've never been more angry with a game designer than I was that day, and it still gets my rankles up whenever I think about it.
CB rage!
I have had similar experiences with adventure games, but I never quite got hacked off enough to have your kind of reaction!
Frustrating points in a game are so annoying though. I was thoroughly enjoying my first play through of Giants:Citizen Kabuto, when I got to a mission where I had to save nine people and return them to my base. I searched the map for about five hours and could not find more than eight. I haven't bothered playing it since.
Well, back when his tricks weren't so well known, I would say Psycho Mantis from MGS falls into the frustration category, until you beat him. One you beat him, your like "That boss fight was f***ing amazing!"
For instance, in Postal 2, an autosave may leave you with 5 bullets left in your machinegun and 3 HP left, but you have no save to load back to and when you die it's going to load back your autosave. That can be quite frustrating.
I'm going to step in and vote Xenogears (PS1 RPG) disc 2. The entire thing. From the "Please insert Disc 2" screen until the ending credits. You're going about your merry way in the game, saving nations and breaking up conflicts, enjoying innocent giant mecha battlin' action...
...and then it seemed almost as if Squaresoft's executive manager walked in the door and said "all right guys, we're almost out of budget, so let's finish the rest of the game in 3 weeks, okay?", leaving the second half of the game a wonderful entanglement of confusing plot holes and mind-screws.
I still love the game whole-heartily, but man... it wins the choke-point "WTF" award for the mental 180 they pull when you stick that second piece of plastic in your PlayStation.
It's fitting that the article picture is Ultima 8. That ENTIRE GAME was a frustration point.
Riovanes Rooftop wasn't that bad, unless you didn't do any levelling/grinding whatsoever. I mean yes that fight is hella cheap but I was able to finish that mission with basically just one hit on my first playthrough with my mega monk Ramza.
I played through the entirety of Xenogears in a single 48-hour sitting so I didn't notice anything really wrong with the second disc as I pretty much wasn't in any condition to do so. I had fun and I love that game too.
EDIT: I'm going to second Riovanes Castle roof as well, it took like 20 tries to beat because the mark would run up to the bad guys and get killed before I ever got a turn. On try #21 his little AI figured out that it was safer on MY part of the roof and I finished the mission.
The final boss in metroid prime... i nearly chewed the ends of my controller off in frustration, hoarde mode on insane with only 2 ppl (gears of war 2)
I still keep going back though, its in my blood, i always convince myself it wasnt as hard as i thought...
I played through the entirety of Xenogears in a single 48-hour sitting so I didn't notice anything really wrong with the second disc as I pretty much wasn't in any condition to do so. I had fun and I love that game too.
EDIT: I'm going to second Riovanes Castle roof as well, it took like 20 tries to beat because the mark would run up to the bad guys and get killed before I ever got a turn. On try #21 his little AI figured out that it was safer on MY part of the roof and I finished the mission.
-drasnor
Exactly, it isn't the fight itself that is difficult, it's getting a FREAKING TURN that's the problem!
Comments
-Bobby
If I had to narrow it to one single awful frustration point in any game. The old foggies here might remember RC Pro Am on the Nintendo Entertainment System.
RC Pro Am invented the "rubber band AI" and it played very, very dirty get to about level 20 or so, it became freaking impossible. Still a gem of a title, worth playing, but the rubber band AI is awful
Battletoads was a breeze.
Who remembers the reset trick on X-Men? I would have never figured that out without the help of GamePro.
However: I can think of a few examples of bad design. The one most fresh in my head is the end of Prince of Persia: Two thrones. I played through that whole game with a growing appreciation for the mechanics. The learning curve was perfect the whole way... Until I got to the final boss, who was simply so hard, and required such exact, skillful use of the Prince's talents, it simply wasn't possible for me to beat him at the skill level I had reached. I consider that bad design, but I don't know how universal that experience was, because I've never talked to anyone else who's played though it.
Another example that comes to mind from times long past is Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father. An old point-and-click adventure game from Sierra. On day four, I reached a point where I couldn't figure out what to do. I spent hours and hours and hours visiting each location, talking to each person, but I could not figure out what the game expected me to do next. The character is investigating a murder, and I got to a point where I had no more clues to follow, but the day wouldn't end (like it had in the past when I'd found all the clues for that day). Finally, after many hours, I went to the game store, and bought the hint-book for the game (this was before gamefaqs.com or anything like it). I finally figured out that in the park that the player walks through to get form one side of town to the other, there is a single gray pixel at the base of one tree, and I'm supposed to notice and click on that one pixel, which is a lost earing, and my next clue. In my anger, I threw the hint book across the room, then took the floppy diskette out of my drive and threw it out of my window, never to be retrieved. I've never been more angry with a game designer than I was that day, and it still gets my rankles up whenever I think about it.
-drasnor
CB rage!
I have had similar experiences with adventure games, but I never quite got hacked off enough to have your kind of reaction!
Frustrating points in a game are so annoying though. I was thoroughly enjoying my first play through of Giants:Citizen Kabuto, when I got to a mission where I had to save nine people and return them to my base. I searched the map for about five hours and could not find more than eight. I haven't bothered playing it since.
That was all well and good, until I couldn't figure out, for 10 hours straight, where the f@#% I was supposed to go.
For instance, in Postal 2, an autosave may leave you with 5 bullets left in your machinegun and 3 HP left, but you have no save to load back to and when you die it's going to load back your autosave. That can be quite frustrating.
/die
...and then it seemed almost as if Squaresoft's executive manager walked in the door and said "all right guys, we're almost out of budget, so let's finish the rest of the game in 3 weeks, okay?", leaving the second half of the game a wonderful entanglement of confusing plot holes and mind-screws.
I still love the game whole-heartily, but man... it wins the choke-point "WTF" award for the mental 180 they pull when you stick that second piece of plastic in your PlayStation.
And yes, that really frustrated me.
I hate that crap
Excuse me, I will kill you all in my own good time, don't rush me man....
Riovanes Rooftop wasn't that bad, unless you didn't do any levelling/grinding whatsoever. I mean yes that fight is hella cheap but I was able to finish that mission with basically just one hit on my first playthrough with my mega monk Ramza.
EDIT: I'm going to second Riovanes Castle roof as well, it took like 20 tries to beat because the mark would run up to the bad guys and get killed before I ever got a turn. On try #21 his little AI figured out that it was safer on MY part of the roof and I finished the mission.
-drasnor
I still keep going back though, its in my blood, i always convince myself it wasnt as hard as i thought...
But it is...
Exactly, it isn't the fight itself that is difficult, it's getting a FREAKING TURN that's the problem!
Easy Level Was Easy