AnnesTripped Up by Libidos and HubrisAlexandria, VAIcrontian
edited April 2011
I was reading though the subreddit for the HBO series and it made me nervous about the show keeping fans. There was a bit of discussion about "good" and "bad" guys and how people were absolutely devastated at the end of episode 2, hoping that it wouldn't continue down such a sad road. There is no possible way these people will make it to the end of the season.
Then I guess those people completely miss the idea of what a drama is. The characters you care about are going to suffer, that's how drama works. I've seen people have the same complaint about the books and it makes me face-palm a little.
I gotta say, episode 3 is the best one yet. I'm a little at odds with some of the casting but overall I'm liking the series. It is moving at a really fast clip though. It's perfect for me because I've read the books but I wonder if it would be information overload for someone who hasn't.
Anyhow, with this show I've forgiven HBO for dropping Tombstone and Rome.
Speaking as someone who hasn't read the books. I'm enjoying the show greatly. There's a bit of a learning cuve coming to grips with the various characters and factions. But since they are focusing on just a few of them it's not hard to follow other then remembering who some of the people are when they are just named when off the camera.
But I like not knowing where the story is going. Each episode is new for me and I have no basis to compare it to. So when someone dies or seems to die it's a surprise.
Just started A Storm of Swords...excellent reading. I only started the series when I heard HBO was involved. Sean Bean is perfect as Eddard Stark, please don't kill him off for a very long time.
After watching the Game of Thrones season opener last night, with little knowledge of the mythology beyond some episodes and back story my wife has given me, I have to be honest, what does anyone see in this?
I'm curious what @CB might think of it from a literary / storytelling perspective. What I feel like I'm watching (admittedly with very little knowledge and investment in the series)... is this disjointed mess of a story. At the risk of sounding a little insensitive, I almost feel like George RR Martin must suffer from some kind of attention deficit disorder? Can we focus on more than one item for more than a couple minutes at any given time? Why all the arcs, the subplots, the supplemental characters, how do they all serve to drive the primary story forward, what is the primary story? The struggle to unite the realms, the Iron Throne? Why does that seem lost to me? Who am I supposed to care about? Why do I feel like I'm just getting into a moment then I'm forced to look away, not at another setting or character that may drive forward the arc of what I was just watching but an entirely different set of circumstances half a world away from what was just important to me?
George RR Martin fans... How is this such a big deal? What am I missing?
The goal is the Iron Throne. Take the seat, rule the world. All characters contribute to this struggle in ways that may not be immediately evident. They all matter somehow, even if in a Butterfly Effect sort of way.
Some have said GoT is the story of the Starks. Some might call it the story of the Targaryens. Others still might call it the story of Jon Snow. All of them are right. There is no clear protagonist because that's a matter of perspective, especially in the bloody game of thrones. That's real life: one man's conqueror is another man's hero. One man's savior is another man's villain. Even a beloved king is never without fear of the knife.
GoT is a story of power. Power and the pursuit is not straightforward. Many of us find the moral ambiguity, the machinations and the complexity very appealing. We enjoy that this is not another cut-and-dry protagonist vs. antagonist story with a predictable trajectory that wraps up with a neat conclusion. But we DO know that every thread will collide in the end and that no detail is incidental.
None of this can be understood by committing to a scattered handful of episodes. Limited knowledge begets limited conclusions.
@Cliff_Forster said:
After watching the Game of Thrones season opener last night, with little knowledge of the mythology beyond some episodes and back story my wife has given me, I have to be honest, what does anyone see in this?
It doesn't have a plot. This is a massive interwoven story of hundreds of individuals in a massive power struggle in a complex, living, breathing world.
You cannot grasp it by jumping in to any given point. The story is about the people in it, not what they're doing.
@Thrax said:
The goal is the Iron Throne. Take the seat, rule the world. All characters contribute to this struggle in ways that may not be immediately evident. They all matter somehow, even if in a Butterfly Effect sort of way.
Some have said GoT is the story of the Starks. Some might call it the story of the Targaryens. Others still might call it the story of Jon Snow. All of them are right. There is no clear protagonist because that's a matter of perspective, especially in the bloody game of thrones. That's real life: one man's conqueror is another man's hero. One man's savior is another man's villain. Even a beloved king is never without fear of the knife.
GoT is a story of power. Power and the pursuit is not straightforward. Many of us find the moral ambiguity, the machinations and the complexity very appealing. We enjoy that this is not another cut-and-dry protagonist vs. antagonist story with a predictable trajectory that wraps up with a neat conclusion. But we DO know that every thread will collide in the end and that no detail is incidental.
None of this can be understood by committing to a scattered handful of episodes. Limited knowledge begets limited conclusions.
Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. I realize fully that I'm not giving it a fair shake. I'm just curious what fans think. Is this a different kind of fiction? Do you enjoy the challenge of the multiple arcs? Is that the appeal. I have watched a little bit, I'm not sure it is for me, but there is this part of me that feels like I'm missing something. How can millions of rabid fans be wrong? Maybe I will try to consume the first novel, see if that hooks me. From the episode the other night though, I was watching this whirlwind of things moving from one place to the next so quickly, and for a moment I thought, okay this is just about shock, it has sex, and gratuitous violence so people notice it. That said for so many people to adore it the way they do I'm thinking I have to be missing something, there has to be more to it than that, and this old article crossed my mind.
It starts with Tolkien. He wasn't the first to include multiple character arcs in one long story, but he certainly popularized the form for modern fantasy writers. Like any other trend in art, it's been taken out to the point that what modern practitioners are doing doesn't quite look the same at a glance, if you haven't been watching the intermediary steps, but most epic-sized fantasy stories now follow this ring-quest format, rather than the oddysee style story about one character who has lots of shit to do. Even many novel-sized fantasy stories now use this type of story telling.
Generally, the characters all begin in one place (like the Council of Elrond) and end in mostly one place (those who survive) and spend the middle of the story variously departing from and rejoining one another to keep them connected. If you read a random sequence from the middle of the Lord of the Rings, it wouldn't make any sense (as opposed to reading a random adventure in the middle of the Odyssey, which is still coherent).
Now Martin's work is much longer than LotR, and at the point you dropped in, the characters have been apart for a long time, and are running their own shit separately, but they still, mostly, all were in the same place at the beginning of the first book. One major line (Daenerys) was introduced as distant, but connected through other characters later, and some lines (Stannis, Brienne) are branches of other character's stories that began at the beginning of one of the other books, but it still follow. The Song of Ice and Fire is a particularly convoluted tale, and so even more difficult to pick up in the middle than LotR ever would be, but it's not really a "challenge" if you watch/read from the beginning (I actually recommend you watch, rather than read, but it's not a popular opinion)
If @CB says the TV show isn't cheating then that is what I'll do. I'll start at the first season and try to get into it. I have always had a curiosity about it, my son and wife are nuts about it, I just have yet to invest in it.
I'm in the camp that if I had the option to start with the show, I would, but I've already spent so much time reading the books I feel like I have to finish.
I read all the books as they came out and watched each season of the show, but now that the show is ahead of the books I'm not as likely to finish the book series. I can't wait on GRRM forever.
I gave up on books and the show. I just got boring to me, and not worth paying for HBO just to watch that one show. If Hulu or Netflix pick it up, maybe, but unlikely
Comments
Anyhow, with this show I've forgiven HBO for dropping Tombstone and Rome.
But I like not knowing where the story is going. Each episode is new for me and I have no basis to compare it to. So when someone dies or seems to die it's a surprise.
After watching the Game of Thrones season opener last night, with little knowledge of the mythology beyond some episodes and back story my wife has given me, I have to be honest, what does anyone see in this?
I'm curious what @CB might think of it from a literary / storytelling perspective. What I feel like I'm watching (admittedly with very little knowledge and investment in the series)... is this disjointed mess of a story. At the risk of sounding a little insensitive, I almost feel like George RR Martin must suffer from some kind of attention deficit disorder? Can we focus on more than one item for more than a couple minutes at any given time? Why all the arcs, the subplots, the supplemental characters, how do they all serve to drive the primary story forward, what is the primary story? The struggle to unite the realms, the Iron Throne? Why does that seem lost to me? Who am I supposed to care about? Why do I feel like I'm just getting into a moment then I'm forced to look away, not at another setting or character that may drive forward the arc of what I was just watching but an entirely different set of circumstances half a world away from what was just important to me?
George RR Martin fans... How is this such a big deal? What am I missing?
The goal is the Iron Throne. Take the seat, rule the world. All characters contribute to this struggle in ways that may not be immediately evident. They all matter somehow, even if in a Butterfly Effect sort of way.
Some have said GoT is the story of the Starks. Some might call it the story of the Targaryens. Others still might call it the story of Jon Snow. All of them are right. There is no clear protagonist because that's a matter of perspective, especially in the bloody game of thrones. That's real life: one man's conqueror is another man's hero. One man's savior is another man's villain. Even a beloved king is never without fear of the knife.
GoT is a story of power. Power and the pursuit is not straightforward. Many of us find the moral ambiguity, the machinations and the complexity very appealing. We enjoy that this is not another cut-and-dry protagonist vs. antagonist story with a predictable trajectory that wraps up with a neat conclusion. But we DO know that every thread will collide in the end and that no detail is incidental.
None of this can be understood by committing to a scattered handful of episodes. Limited knowledge begets limited conclusions.
It doesn't have a plot. This is a massive interwoven story of hundreds of individuals in a massive power struggle in a complex, living, breathing world.
You cannot grasp it by jumping in to any given point. The story is about the people in it, not what they're doing.
Yeah if GRRM would just release the next book that would be great.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/george-r-r-martin-cannot-think-of-single-good-reason-to-finish-book-20160105105045
Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. I realize fully that I'm not giving it a fair shake. I'm just curious what fans think. Is this a different kind of fiction? Do you enjoy the challenge of the multiple arcs? Is that the appeal. I have watched a little bit, I'm not sure it is for me, but there is this part of me that feels like I'm missing something. How can millions of rabid fans be wrong? Maybe I will try to consume the first novel, see if that hooks me. From the episode the other night though, I was watching this whirlwind of things moving from one place to the next so quickly, and for a moment I thought, okay this is just about shock, it has sex, and gratuitous violence so people notice it. That said for so many people to adore it the way they do I'm thinking I have to be missing something, there has to be more to it than that, and this old article crossed my mind.
As for the multi-arc stuff, here's the thing:
It starts with Tolkien. He wasn't the first to include multiple character arcs in one long story, but he certainly popularized the form for modern fantasy writers. Like any other trend in art, it's been taken out to the point that what modern practitioners are doing doesn't quite look the same at a glance, if you haven't been watching the intermediary steps, but most epic-sized fantasy stories now follow this ring-quest format, rather than the oddysee style story about one character who has lots of shit to do. Even many novel-sized fantasy stories now use this type of story telling.
Generally, the characters all begin in one place (like the Council of Elrond) and end in mostly one place (those who survive) and spend the middle of the story variously departing from and rejoining one another to keep them connected. If you read a random sequence from the middle of the Lord of the Rings, it wouldn't make any sense (as opposed to reading a random adventure in the middle of the Odyssey, which is still coherent).
Now Martin's work is much longer than LotR, and at the point you dropped in, the characters have been apart for a long time, and are running their own shit separately, but they still, mostly, all were in the same place at the beginning of the first book. One major line (Daenerys) was introduced as distant, but connected through other characters later, and some lines (Stannis, Brienne) are branches of other character's stories that began at the beginning of one of the other books, but it still follow. The Song of Ice and Fire is a particularly convoluted tale, and so even more difficult to pick up in the middle than LotR ever would be, but it's not really a "challenge" if you watch/read from the beginning (I actually recommend you watch, rather than read, but it's not a popular opinion)
If @CB says the TV show isn't cheating then that is what I'll do. I'll start at the first season and try to get into it. I have always had a curiosity about it, my son and wife are nuts about it, I just have yet to invest in it.
I'm in the camp that if I had the option to start with the show, I would, but I've already spent so much time reading the books I feel like I have to finish.
Haven't touched the books. I've really enjoyed the show.
I read all the books as they came out and watched each season of the show, but now that the show is ahead of the books I'm not as likely to finish the book series. I can't wait on GRRM forever.
I gave up on books and the show. I just got boring to me, and not worth paying for HBO just to watch that one show. If Hulu or Netflix pick it up, maybe, but unlikely