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MAGIC
NFNF
MAGIC
2,079 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:59am

Well, they finally did it...

... they made the game suck.

Nice work on making item unlocks random, dumb asses.
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Thrax
Cad
Thrax
23,398 Posts
22 May 2009, 7:02am
Tell me more. I don't get what you mean? I'm curious about it.
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Gnome Queen
Ms. D
Gnome Queen
1,411 Posts
22 May 2009, 8:17am
Instead of earning achievements, which in stages unlock new weapons for each class, you now obtain those weapons entirely randomly. Like, you just get a notice saying "you have found the backburner" and you have a new weapon, regardless of whether or not you have played that class extensively or done any achievements. The achievements are now meaningless except to say that you have them, and there's no guarantee that you're going to get the weapons you want in a given time frame.
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primesuspect
The Icrontic Guy
primesuspect
27,786 Posts
22 May 2009, 8:47am
I agree that it sucks for many reasons; but at the same time it makes achievement whoring obsolete, which is a very good thing.
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Black Hawk
Metaphysically wrinkle free
Black Hawk
4,121 Posts
22 May 2009, 9:41am
I can deal with achievement whores more than I can deal with this unlock system.
__________________ "All we are... is dust in the wind"
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 1:08pm
I think its nice for people like me capable of getting the items without having to play a class to death. There are some items I'd like to try out that would likely change my opinion of the class (looking at the pyro mostly).

Edit: Just found this interview http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1124
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MAGIC
NFNF
MAGIC
2,079 Posts
22 May 2009, 1:40pm
Well, the classes i enjoy are the ones i have even bothered getting the unlockables in: Medic and heavy. The only others i would really care to get them in is sniper and Engi. I played for like 4 hours yesterday trying to get any of the sniper items and i was rewarded with unlocking the Axtinguiser, 4 times. Now whenever i play i will just be annoyed.
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Gargoyle
We can't stop here...
Gargoyle
4,677 Posts

» Subscriber

22 May 2009, 2:11pm
That's really weird. I mean, I'd like a system that makes it a little easier to get the weapons without achievement whoring, but this one sounds ridiculous.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 2:39pm
Quoting primesuspect
I agree that it sucks for many reasons; but at the same time it makes achievement whoring obsolete, which is a very good thing.
I'd rather deal with the idiots who achievement whore then have my 17 achievements as a spy and not a single new unlockable...Frustrating is an understatement and underwhelming is a decent way to put it. My vocab isn't great so bare with me. Regardless, I have a friend who has been playing all night, literally almost 10 or 11 hours straight (free weekend but he is buying it now). He has only unlocked the natascha randomly as well as the ambassador. In my like 4 hours of playing I got BONK!, Butslauger, KGB, and Kritzkrieg, all of which I already fucking have so I deleted them from my briefcase. FUCK the new update...
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MAGIC
NFNF
MAGIC
2,079 Posts
22 May 2009, 2:49pm
Everyone send a bug report and complain about it. Im sure most others are pissed about it. This wont stay like this long im sure.
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Lincoln
Snapperhead
Lincoln
15,944 Posts
22 May 2009, 2:51pm
It's possible the idea is sound but that last night's play was buggy. Redundant item-getting doesn't seem like something Valve would do on purpose.
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Thrax
Cad
Thrax
23,398 Posts
22 May 2009, 2:55pm
That sounds pretty god damn lame, not gonna lie. I always saw unlockables as a reward for quality play. I've never received anything but the flare gun, but the sense of accomplishment was great because I knew I played well to get it.

Oh well. Everything gets nerfed for casuals.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 2:59pm
I have been frequenting the Steam community forums...appraently 99% of the community feels the same way. Plus people have already been getting "hats" as well from the random unlocks. In my playing last night I saw nothing of a hat of any type unlocked. Apparently the Pyro gets a propeller cap, and the engi gets a mining helmet. For now they are just cosmetic. Still though, 17 fuckin spy achievements and 12 Sniper and nothing to show for it...that's just wrong. Let them achievement whore..that's the point of it. Valve says they are making it RPG esque, well newflash Valve, RPG is all about farming...
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:05pm
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/giveustf2back?

Join this group and complain.
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:05pm
From the interview I linked, it looked like they wanted it to be randomly possible AND possible through game play. I think this is broken.
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pragtastic
IC Regular
pragtastic
303 Posts

» Subscriber

22 May 2009, 3:08pm
I played from server release to 2am last night, not 1 single f*&%'ing unlock all night. I hate this.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:08pm
Quoting MiracleManS
From the interview I linked, it looked like they wanted it to be randomly possible AND possible through game play. I think this is broken.
Agreed, it's like they are "testing" out the new system on us. Fuck that, just test it yourself first and when you realize it's broken then don't release the update. Take another day if you have to. I'd rather not have the update right now if I knew it would work properly after this weekend then have it be like this.
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:14pm
Quoting Sciz
Agreed, it's like they are "testing" out the new system on us. Fuck that, just test it yourself first and when you realize it's broken then don't release the update. Take another day if you have to. I'd rather not have the update right now if I knew it would work properly after this weekend then have it be like this.
No matter how hard they test it internally, they don't have a legion of 20-30k+ people playing the game constantly to do the kind of testing necessary for this sort of change.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:17pm
Quoting MiracleManS
No matter how hard they test it internally, they don't have a legion of 20-30k+ people playing the game constantly to do the kind of testing necessary for this sort of change.
Problem is they don't have to. You realize how broken the system is?? People are sitting in servers afk all day now and getting random unlocks when they get back. You don't even have to fucking play, they could've tested that and you know it.
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Buddy J
Dept. of Propaganda
Buddy J
7,433 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:22pm
They said they're quite willing to use the public as guinea pigs as a way to see if things are good or bad. I think the reaction thus far is it's not a popular change. Hopefully they'll see it as such.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:24pm
Quoting Buddy J
They said they're quite willing to use the public as guinea pigs as a way to see if things are good or bad. I think the reaction thus far is it's not a popular change. Hopefully they'll see it as such.

Agreed, the public is saying "fuck your new update give us back the old TF2" so I think they will listen. If they don't I think people will literally stop playing TF2 until it's fixed. I mean seriously, sitting in spec all day and earning unlocks...that's pathetic.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:38pm
Just found this posted on that group I joined. Funny shit.

It was the 21st of May.
And happy was thought the Day.
That Valve would let us Play.
But the update took too Long.
And the Weapon Drop System was Wrong.
New weapons to no player Belonged.
For Valve did not Say that they threw Pro Players Away.
For this Valve will surely PAY. $$$
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 3:39pm
Quoting Sciz
Agreed, the public is saying "fuck your new update give us back the old TF2" so I think they will listen. If they don't I think people will literally stop playing TF2 until it's fixed. I mean seriously, sitting in spec all day and earning unlocks...that's pathetic.
Meh, I don't think its that big a deal. The weapons themselves aren't exactly game breaking, I think Valve did a good job of making sure they fit with the style of the game.

I dislike the idea that I have to spend countless time getting weapons that obviously have a use. I LOVE playing the Heavy class, so I managed to get the unlocks, but there are times that I need to play other classes and not having some of those situational weapons basically makes me question playing those classes (despite the need of the team) because I can't be effective in that role that is needed.
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pragtastic
IC Regular
pragtastic
303 Posts

» Subscriber

22 May 2009, 4:13pm
Yeah, I understand the idea of making weapons accessible to those who don't play the other classes very often, but the flip side of this infuriates me.

I have countless hours logged as a sniper. I can continue playing my class all day long, earning all the achievements and never 'find' one of the unlocks. There is absolutely zero control over it, which in my opinion, makes it about as stupid an idea as is feasibly possible in its current state.
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MAGIC
NFNF
MAGIC
2,079 Posts
22 May 2009, 4:23pm
You dont raid in an MMO to get gear for a class you dont play. The time you put into playing a particular class should be rewarded with advances for that class, it only makes sense.
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pragtastic
IC Regular
pragtastic
303 Posts

» Subscriber

22 May 2009, 4:31pm
At the very absolute minimum, Valve should have incorporated a system where player's would basically auto-find items after meeting baseline game play levels. My suggestion would be something like a forced unlock (it could still be random I guess) after every 2 hours of game play or 10-20 achievements unlocked.

This way players can actually do *something* in the way of obtaining items on a predictable basis rather than just hoping you mysteriously *find an item* for no apparent reason.
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Thrax
Cad
Thrax
23,398 Posts
22 May 2009, 4:35pm
AQ Gates.
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Myrmidon
Who loves you, baby?
Myrmidon
190 Posts
22 May 2009, 4:51pm
Whoa.

Man, I'm glad I already have all the unlocks for the classes I play.
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Winfrey
kaishakunin
Winfrey
1,859 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:02pm
Valve,

fix this shit

Thanks,
Winfrey
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CB
Doktor Schnabel von Rom
CB
5,964 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:13pm
I do think that the system of forcing people to whore achievements to get the items was not working, personally. Those who play casually or who aren't very good at the game were being discouraged from playing (yes, that's a bad thing).

I don't think that this new system is working the way they intended it to. It just doesn't make sense, but I'm glad they are trying to do something other than basing it on achievements.

Frankly, a better system than this new one would just be to give everyone access to all of the items. Maybe make the cosmetic items something that need to be earned, but let everyone have access to the game-changing stuff.

This isn't an MMORPG.
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Norge
rawr rawr rawr!
Norge
470 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:24pm
I don't play the game but to me this seems pretty ridiculous. Having weapon rewards be 100% random makes no sense and is just discouraging. An experience based system seems more reasonable. That way they can adjust the experience curve. Set it so when you swap to a new class you have to put some time into it but not so much to discourage playing it. With the experience curve set right a player new to a class would have enough play time in to understand the class well enough to actually know how to properly use the new weapon they just received. Hardcore players will get their weapons without having to wait on the random aspect. It means hardcore players will have all the weapons fairly quickly but that is the end result this random system will give anyhow.

Norge
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MAGIC
NFNF
MAGIC
2,079 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:28pm
Quoting CB
I do think that the system of forcing people to whore achievements to get the items was not working, personally. Those who play casually or who aren't very good at the game were being discouraged from playing (yes, that's a bad thing).
Making items unlockable based on achievements encourages people to develope skill in few particular classes. This encourages players to play classes they are good at resulting in the quality of players in game better as a whole.
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Buddy J
Dept. of Propaganda
Buddy J
7,433 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:37pm
That's provided that the game play makes players want to earn achievements. Obviously some players don't feel the reward is worth working for, or they're just too lazy to do it.
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MAGIC
NFNF
MAGIC
2,079 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:46pm
Well, they choose to limit their effectiveness in their prefered classes. They can be the best players they can be with what they choose.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:56pm
I just hate the fact that people whoa re playing for free are getting to try out the new weapons whereas me who's had the game a decent amount of time, not long but long enough, ain't getting shit. I have like 17 spy achievements and nothing to show for it. What the hell am I getting achievements for. This isn't XBOX where achievements are simply for gamer points. It use to be achievements meant something. Valve, don't become Xbox...
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 5:59pm
Quoting ][v][AGIC
Well, they choose to limit their effectiveness in their prefered classes. They can be the best players they can be with what they choose.
But limiting the availability for someone like myself, who plays MAYBE 5-6 hours a month (unless EPIC/LAN is coming, then it's a bit more frequent, maybe 3 hours a week), because of some sort of half-assed notion of increasing player ability in specific instances seems a bit silly.

I like playing the heavy almost exclusively (scout is a distant second), but I also like playing the other classes to test out all the little quirks. One of those quirks includes the additional weapons, some of which can have an astounding impact on game play (sandman?). Its frustrating to not be capable of the same impact on the playing field despite what might be decent/acceptable ability. This really hurts a player base and a group as a whole when trying to do team makeup. The weapons are situational and sometimes it would make more sense for me to play a Scout than a Heavy (given, for example, there are 2 other heavies on the team that are well and above better than me as heavy, but we may be even as scouts). In this case, though, because I haven't logged as much time as our previous other two people, I don't have the chance to change the outcome in a similar way as the other people.

I know you don't do things for another class in an MMO, but that's SLIGHTLY different than in this case.

I think they had the right idea from the interview of making it random (not quite as often here) OR based on achievements. Give people both, not just one. I think that's the best way to do it.
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:05pm
Quoting MiracleManS
But limiting the availability for someone like myself, who plays MAYBE 5-6 hours a month, because of some sort of half-assed notion of increasing player ability in specific instances seems a bit silly.

I know you don't do things for another class in an MMO, but that's SLIGHTLY different than in this case.

I think they had the right idea from the interview of making it random (not quite as often here) OR based on achievements. Give people both, not just one. I think that's the best way to do it.
Not a bad idea, let the people who want to achievement whore, albeit achievement servers or just earning them the good ol' fashioned way, get their unlocks as well as people who don't care can get them randomly. That would encourage people who aren't "good" at the game to still think "hey, I can get the new weapon randomly, I might get lucky". Not a bad idea at all. Have both.
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:07pm
Quoting Sciz
Not a bad idea, let the people who want to achievement whore, albeit achievement servers or just earning them the good ol' fashioned way, get their unlocks as well as people who don't care can get them randomly. That would encourage people who aren't "good" at the game to still think "hey, I can get the new weapon randomly, I might get lucky". Not a bad idea at all. Have both.
I honestly think that was the intention from that interview I linked above. I just wonder if its ACTUALLY working, or if its some sort of strange scenario where the random generator was rolling off too fast from the central steam servers because of the massive influx of players (free weekend + updates?)
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Sciz
Friend of the neighbors
Sciz
39 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:14pm
Quoting MiracleManS
I honestly think that was the intention from that interview I linked above. I just wonder if its ACTUALLY working, or if its some sort of strange scenario where the random generator was rolling off too fast from the central steam servers because of the massive influx of players (free weekend + updates?)
Regardless of what it is I am giving them until Monday morning to get this shit fixed. After the free weekend is over this better be fixed. If it isn't..well there game has gone to shit officially and they will lose a large fan base. Already people are saying they won't play until it's fixed.
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pragtastic
IC Regular
pragtastic
303 Posts

» Subscriber

22 May 2009, 6:15pm
Their 'random' works kinda like this implementation of random.
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MAGIC
NFNF
MAGIC
2,079 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:21pm
How is my argument half assed? It really comes down to which segment Valve wants to cater to, and from what i read there is a much greater number of people upset about this than not.
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:32pm
Quoting ][v][AGIC
How is my argument half assed? It really comes down to which segment Valve wants to cater to, and from what i read there is a much greater number of people upset about this than not.
I'm upset about it, but not for the same reasons. I'd be perfectly happy if the random were LESS frequent and involved the class you were playing AND also provided you the ability to earn them through achievements. From their interview I linked, the overwhelming feedback they've received about Weapon Unlocks is that making it achievement based doesn't please the majority of players. The interview also mentioned they wanted to provide BOTH the ability to earn it through achievements AND randomly. I don't see what's wrong with both worlds there.

My reference to half-assed arguments was in regards to the whole "hardcore" vs "causal" debate. In a game of this nature it seems specious, especially when its easy to cater to both.
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MiracleManS
Mediocrity Gets You Pears
MiracleManS
1,073 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:33pm
Quoting Sciz
Regardless of what it is I am giving them until Monday morning to get this shit fixed. After the free weekend is over this better be fixed. If it isn't..well there game has gone to shit officially and they will lose a large fan base. Already people are saying they won't play until it's fixed.
See, I think that's why it HASN'T been fixed yet, the free weekend. The last thing you want to do is require ANOTHER patch on what would be a big selling point weekend.

I really, really don't think this is a case of "working as intended" but more along the lines of "Shit, didn't expect that, but we can't fix it now because it'll kill the weekend"
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Gnome Queen
Ms. D
Gnome Queen
1,411 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:40pm
I'm sure that Valve will fix this in the near future, considering the tons of bad feedback they must be getting. I wouldn't judge them too harshly based upon this one instance, considering that that they seem like a company that really tries to change based upon user feedback, and does what they can to cater to the customer in terms of releasing new updates, good game deals, and overall interesting games. I'm just going to wait and see what their next move is.

Also "So...how are the weapons unlocked?" "OMG IT'S RANDOM!!!"
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Buddy J
Dept. of Propaganda
Buddy J
7,433 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:44pm
Yeah, I figure they'll revert it or change it after the free weekend. Valve has a history of listening to the community, and this is probably the most vocal the community has been since the game's launch. We've been given no reason to think they'd ignore the community's response, and countless reasons to think that they'll continue listening to the community for feedback as they've done so in the past.
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Myrmidon
Who loves you, baby?
Myrmidon
190 Posts
22 May 2009, 6:46pm
Isn't it painful that when a company has a history of listening to the fanbase, the fanbase becomes abusive? Reading some of those posts in the steamforums... daaaamn.

EDIT: At least it's not a LOT of people making posts like that. There's still some good on the internet.
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Myrmidon edited : 22 May 2009 at 7:14pm .
UPSLynx
The Dean of Computer Graphics
UPSLynx
2,136 Posts
22 May 2009, 7:23pm
I honestly think people are being to brash and quick to respond on this issue.

Like MiracleMan mentioned, unlocking via the old method becomes discouraging for those that don't play as often. I don't have much time to play TF2 these days. Despite Heavy Weapons Guy being my 3rd main class, I had only managed to unlock the sanvich. I've been unable to play the game enough to do things like fire 50 billion bullets nonstop and to kill 80 people without dying. It was frustrating because I wanted the extra weapons, and despite playing the game on and off for the greater part of 7 months since the update, I had only managed the first unlockable.

I think a lot of people are overreacting to rage on this. The update hasn't even been live for 24 hours, and people are screaming that it's bullcrap that they don't have their unlockables yet.

Relax. Enjoy the game. Get the weapons when they come.

The fact that this is stopping achievement farming is outstanding. Achievements mean nothing in my eyes, especially when people are playing custom maps designed solely for unlocking achievements and weapons. Not to mention people hacking and instant unlocks. People are pissed because they can no longer take advantage of the system and get what they want RIGHT NOW.

This doesn't mean I think the current system is perfect. I think it needs much work (snowWhite joined the server last night and immediately had the sniper's bow). But is it ruining the game? No. Will Valve loose their massive fan base? No. Will they fix it? You bet.
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UPSLynx edited : 22 May 2009 at 7:26pm . Reason: additional details as necessary
Koreish
Agent of Chaos
Koreish
874 Posts
22 May 2009, 7:24pm
Quoting Myrmidon
Isn't it painful that when a company has a history of listening to the fanbase, the fanbase becomes abusive? Reading some of those posts in the steamforums... daaaamn.

EDIT: At least it's not a LOT of people making posts like that. There's still some good on the internet.
I would hate to work at Valve for that exact reason. Valve continually provides updates for FREE to all of their games and they make a conscious effort to listen to the fans. By comparison EA may release two patches for a game and proceed to ignore the game and it's fans entirely. Bethesda charges for updates. If Valve wants to test a new system for awhile then by all means they're allowed to because they'll change it if gamers don't like it. It isn't necessary for people to explode at a corporation that is so involved with it's customers the way they are.
__________________ The man who never has anything important to say.
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pragtastic
IC Regular
pragtastic
303 Posts

» Subscriber

22 May 2009, 7:30pm
The system is extremely inconsistent in it's current state and player's have literally 0 control of the unlocks. You can't actually put a little work into the game and be rewarded for it, you're forced to just play and hope the unlock you want to use to change up your game play is randomly awarded to you. Not so much fun IMO.
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CB
Doktor Schnabel von Rom
CB
5,964 Posts
22 May 2009, 7:47pm
I'm with Koreish here. You guys are getting your updates for free, and the game itself didn't even cost much to begin with. They didn't have to ever give us any new items or updates, but they were cool enough to keep working on and trying to improve the game. They're not perfect, there are bound to be occasional mistakes, and even if this is a particularly grievous mistake, they still don't deserve the vehemence that they are getting over this.

If you don't like the game anymore, don't play anymore, or wait until they "fix" it. I'm sure you've gotten your $20 out of it by now.
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