I do think that the system of forcing people to whore achievements to get the items was not working, personally. Those who play casually or who aren't very good at the game were being discouraged from playing (yes, that's a bad thing).
Making items unlockable based on achievements encourages people to develope skill in few particular classes. This encourages players to play classes they are good at resulting in the quality of players in game better as a whole.
That's provided that the game play makes players want to earn achievements. Obviously some players don't feel the reward is worth working for, or they're just too lazy to do it.
I just hate the fact that people whoa re playing for free are getting to try out the new weapons whereas me who's had the game a decent amount of time, not long but long enough, ain't getting shit. I have like 17 spy achievements and nothing to show for it. What the hell am I getting achievements for. This isn't XBOX where achievements are simply for gamer points. It use to be achievements meant something. Valve, don't become Xbox...
[v][AGIC']Well, they choose to limit their effectiveness in their prefered classes. They can be the best players they can be with what they choose.
But limiting the availability for someone like myself, who plays MAYBE 5-6 hours a month (unless EPIC/LAN is coming, then it's a bit more frequent, maybe 3 hours a week), because of some sort of half-assed notion of increasing player ability in specific instances seems a bit silly.
I like playing the heavy almost exclusively (scout is a distant second), but I also like playing the other classes to test out all the little quirks. One of those quirks includes the additional weapons, some of which can have an astounding impact on game play (sandman?). Its frustrating to not be capable of the same impact on the playing field despite what might be decent/acceptable ability. This really hurts a player base and a group as a whole when trying to do team makeup. The weapons are situational and sometimes it would make more sense for me to play a Scout than a Heavy (given, for example, there are 2 other heavies on the team that are well and above better than me as heavy, but we may be even as scouts). In this case, though, because I haven't logged as much time as our previous other two people, I don't have the chance to change the outcome in a similar way as the other people.
I know you don't do things for another class in an MMO, but that's SLIGHTLY different than in this case.
I think they had the right idea from the interview of making it random (not quite as often here) OR based on achievements. Give people both, not just one. I think that's the best way to do it.
But limiting the availability for someone like myself, who plays MAYBE 5-6 hours a month, because of some sort of half-assed notion of increasing player ability in specific instances seems a bit silly.
I know you don't do things for another class in an MMO, but that's SLIGHTLY different than in this case.
I think they had the right idea from the interview of making it random (not quite as often here) OR based on achievements. Give people both, not just one. I think that's the best way to do it.
Not a bad idea, let the people who want to achievement whore, albeit achievement servers or just earning them the good ol' fashioned way, get their unlocks as well as people who don't care can get them randomly. That would encourage people who aren't "good" at the game to still think "hey, I can get the new weapon randomly, I might get lucky". Not a bad idea at all. Have both.
Not a bad idea, let the people who want to achievement whore, albeit achievement servers or just earning them the good ol' fashioned way, get their unlocks as well as people who don't care can get them randomly. That would encourage people who aren't "good" at the game to still think "hey, I can get the new weapon randomly, I might get lucky". Not a bad idea at all. Have both.
I honestly think that was the intention from that interview I linked above. I just wonder if its ACTUALLY working, or if its some sort of strange scenario where the random generator was rolling off too fast from the central steam servers because of the massive influx of players (free weekend + updates?)
I honestly think that was the intention from that interview I linked above. I just wonder if its ACTUALLY working, or if its some sort of strange scenario where the random generator was rolling off too fast from the central steam servers because of the massive influx of players (free weekend + updates?)
Regardless of what it is I am giving them until Monday morning to get this shit fixed. After the free weekend is over this better be fixed. If it isn't..well there game has gone to shit officially and they will lose a large fan base. Already people are saying they won't play until it's fixed.
How is my argument half assed? It really comes down to which segment Valve wants to cater to, and from what i read there is a much greater number of people upset about this than not.
[v][AGIC']How is my argument half assed? It really comes down to which segment Valve wants to cater to, and from what i read there is a much greater number of people upset about this than not.
I'm upset about it, but not for the same reasons. I'd be perfectly happy if the random were LESS frequent and involved the class you were playing AND also provided you the ability to earn them through achievements. From their interview I linked, the overwhelming feedback they've received about Weapon Unlocks is that making it achievement based doesn't please the majority of players. The interview also mentioned they wanted to provide BOTH the ability to earn it through achievements AND randomly. I don't see what's wrong with both worlds there.
My reference to half-assed arguments was in regards to the whole "hardcore" vs "causal" debate. In a game of this nature it seems specious, especially when its easy to cater to both.
Regardless of what it is I am giving them until Monday morning to get this shit fixed. After the free weekend is over this better be fixed. If it isn't..well there game has gone to shit officially and they will lose a large fan base. Already people are saying they won't play until it's fixed.
See, I think that's why it HASN'T been fixed yet, the free weekend. The last thing you want to do is require ANOTHER patch on what would be a big selling point weekend.
I really, really don't think this is a case of "working as intended" but more along the lines of "Shit, didn't expect that, but we can't fix it now because it'll kill the weekend"
I'm sure that Valve will fix this in the near future, considering the tons of bad feedback they must be getting. I wouldn't judge them too harshly based upon this one instance, considering that that they seem like a company that really tries to change based upon user feedback, and does what they can to cater to the customer in terms of releasing new updates, good game deals, and overall interesting games. I'm just going to wait and see what their next move is.
Also "So...how are the weapons unlocked?" "OMG IT'S RANDOM!!!"
Yeah, I figure they'll revert it or change it after the free weekend. Valve has a history of listening to the community, and this is probably the most vocal the community has been since the game's launch. We've been given no reason to think they'd ignore the community's response, and countless reasons to think that they'll continue listening to the community for feedback as they've done so in the past.
Isn't it painful that when a company has a history of listening to the fanbase, the fanbase becomes abusive? Reading some of those posts in the steamforums... daaaamn.
EDIT: At least it's not a LOT of people making posts like that. There's still some good on the internet.
I honestly think people are being to brash and quick to respond on this issue.
Like MiracleMan mentioned, unlocking via the old method becomes discouraging for those that don't play as often. I don't have much time to play TF2 these days. Despite Heavy Weapons Guy being my 3rd main class, I had only managed to unlock the sanvich. I've been unable to play the game enough to do things like fire 50 billion bullets nonstop and to kill 80 people without dying. It was frustrating because I wanted the extra weapons, and despite playing the game on and off for the greater part of 7 months since the update, I had only managed the first unlockable.
I think a lot of people are overreacting to rage on this. The update hasn't even been live for 24 hours, and people are screaming that it's bullcrap that they don't have their unlockables yet.
Relax. Enjoy the game. Get the weapons when they come.
The fact that this is stopping achievement farming is outstanding. Achievements mean nothing in my eyes, especially when people are playing custom maps designed solely for unlocking achievements and weapons. Not to mention people hacking and instant unlocks. People are pissed because they can no longer take advantage of the system and get what they want RIGHT NOW.
This doesn't mean I think the current system is perfect. I think it needs much work (snowWhite joined the server last night and immediately had the sniper's bow). But is it ruining the game? No. Will Valve loose their massive fan base? No. Will they fix it? You bet.
Isn't it painful that when a company has a history of listening to the fanbase, the fanbase becomes abusive? Reading some of those posts in the steamforums... daaaamn.
EDIT: At least it's not a LOT of people making posts like that. There's still some good on the internet.
I would hate to work at Valve for that exact reason. Valve continually provides updates for FREE to all of their games and they make a conscious effort to listen to the fans. By comparison EA may release two patches for a game and proceed to ignore the game and it's fans entirely. Bethesda charges for updates. If Valve wants to test a new system for awhile then by all means they're allowed to because they'll change it if gamers don't like it. It isn't necessary for people to explode at a corporation that is so involved with it's customers the way they are.
The system is extremely inconsistent in it's current state and player's have literally 0 control of the unlocks. You can't actually put a little work into the game and be rewarded for it, you're forced to just play and hope the unlock you want to use to change up your game play is randomly awarded to you. Not so much fun IMO.
I'm with Koreish here. You guys are getting your updates for free, and the game itself didn't even cost much to begin with. They didn't have to ever give us any new items or updates, but they were cool enough to keep working on and trying to improve the game. They're not perfect, there are bound to be occasional mistakes, and even if this is a particularly grievous mistake, they still don't deserve the vehemence that they are getting over this.
If you don't like the game anymore, don't play anymore, or wait until they "fix" it. I'm sure you've gotten your $20 out of it by now.
The system is extremely inconsistent in it's current state and player's have literally 0 control of the unlocks. You can't actually put a little work into the game and be rewarded for it, you're forced to just play and hope the unlock you want to use to change up your game play is randomly awarded to you. Not so much fun IMO.
I agree there, which is why a mix of both worlds would be nice...
I know you and I have discussed this on GChat, but I think it works out better in the long run.
Make it so that anytime you get a "Look on the bright side" type message, a random thing goes off and says "OH HEY, LETS SEE IF YOU GET SOMETHING". Hell have it increase chance the more you play a class. There are some of us that just don't try and get achievements at all and just go with it.
Clarification Edit: While also keeping the achievements in as a way to get the weapons.
Lets also be honest. Some of the achievements are less about skill and more about "OH HEY I NEED THIS SOMEONE UBER ME I'M A SCOUT!" or plain old dumb luck
The system is extremely inconsistent in it's current state and player's have literally 0 control of the unlocks. You can't actually put a little work into the game and be rewarded for it, you're forced to just play and hope the unlock you want to use to change up your game play is randomly awarded to you. Not so much fun IMO.
The key here, I believe, is fun.
Have we all forgotten how to just play the game and have fun together? When did this become a contest? When did it become 'pro' tier?
Prag, you and I share a similar view on the game. Especially as a sniper player, I really want these new weapons as well. But I don't think TF2 should have ever been a game that caters to 'busting your balls to gain outlandish achievements' just to become a better player.
I'm becoming convinced that a hybrid system is what we need ultimately. But as I stated before, the game is hardly ruined. This should have never become a contest that focuses on unlocking. The game always has been and always should be about having fun.
I want a challenge in the game. Achievements provided that. When i got the ubersaw, back when you had to get every acheivement to unlock, it was a very nice feeling to know that i had it and others didn't. Showed that i had the skill, dedicaton, and in most cases luck to get get every achievement.
The only benefit I've found with the new system is that I can play whatever class I want or whatever the team needs and still get the items. I played Engie last night because we needed one, and I was still able to get the BONK! drink I'd been wanting/needing for when I play scout. It'll come in handy in the future to have it, but at the time, I was better off serving as an Engineer than trying to get my Scout achievements.
The only benefit I've found with the new system is that I can play whatever class I want or whatever the team needs and still get the items. I played Engie last night because we needed one, and I was still able to get the BONK! drink I'd been wanting/needing for when I play scout. It'll come in handy in the future to have it, but at the time, I was better off serving as an Engineer than trying to get my Scout achievements.
This right here is why I'm all for the random, but toned down to not give them out every 30 seconds.
[v][AGIC']I want a challenge in the game. Achievements provided that. When i got the ubersaw, back when you had to get every acheivement to unlock, it was a very nice feeling to know that i had it and others didn't. Showed that i had the skill, dedicaton, and in most cases luck to get get every achievement.
I understand that statement, and it was a weapon well deserved. But such an idea is invalidated, in my opinion, by the existence of achievement farming maps, and the fact that it alienates the players who are good at the game, yet don't have the incredible amounts of time to devote to unlocking those key weapons.
Many people were getting the weapons that didn't rightfully deserve them. It sort of defeated the purpose, making those that weren't willing to 'cheat' but weren't able to get them in good time.
I've been playing since TF2 came out and I play Medic often and I feel I am above average... I still do not have the Ubersaw....
So, this means one of three things... 1) The skill (or achievements) is beyond my level OR 2) the achievements are too stupid for everyday game experience OR 3) the old Achievment system didn't work.
On one hand I am upset that some of the achievements are pointless but necessary to unlock a new weapon. On the other hand, I'll be damned if a new guy walks up to me and uses his ubersaw on me when he has less than 5% the experience or skill.
The system should reward you for playing with utmost skill but also for dedication. The new weapon achievement unlocks should be lessened AND those that accumilate "X" hours, or kills, or heals should ALSO be rewarded.
Playing my ass off and getting a weapon for a class that I am not fond of is a waste. I know... "maybe the new weapon will make you like the class" but I know that my skills are not well suited to sniper, spy, or scout. I can play them and do some good but only if the situation requires me to change.
My system would be as follows.... Each class has 50 achievements. 10 achievements you receive a random unlock within that class. 20 another unlock, 30 another, so on.
For each 100 hours of TF2 you randomly get one or the other, grant a new unlock OR level up a weapon (Same weapon but with bonuses). Every 100 hrs equals a chance to unlock a new weapon or at least level up an existing weapon. Make it 50 hrs for a class and the odds increase that you will get a weapon.
Another option.... just assign skill points for hours, achievements, and random. Then "charge" for upgrades and unlocks....
What does this do... rewards skill, effort, and branches out
Lynx... another option. Make earning an Achievement based on certified maps and not allow custom maps to be rewarded except for hrs played. I'm not saying NO CUSTOM maps... just make them go through some certification as being fair.
At this point I am kind of "dis"couraged to play TF2. Mainly because random new people as well as people who aren't getting any "new" achievements already have the huntsmen, cloak and dagger, razorback, jarate, etc. I have NOTHING yet so it's frustrating because the gameplay differs against a spy with cloak and dagger or playing a spy against a sniper with razorback or jarate. I am at a disadvantage for playing more and getting the proper achievements....doesn't make sense.
Comments
Making items unlockable based on achievements encourages people to develope skill in few particular classes. This encourages players to play classes they are good at resulting in the quality of players in game better as a whole.
But limiting the availability for someone like myself, who plays MAYBE 5-6 hours a month (unless EPIC/LAN is coming, then it's a bit more frequent, maybe 3 hours a week), because of some sort of half-assed notion of increasing player ability in specific instances seems a bit silly.
I like playing the heavy almost exclusively (scout is a distant second), but I also like playing the other classes to test out all the little quirks. One of those quirks includes the additional weapons, some of which can have an astounding impact on game play (sandman?). Its frustrating to not be capable of the same impact on the playing field despite what might be decent/acceptable ability. This really hurts a player base and a group as a whole when trying to do team makeup. The weapons are situational and sometimes it would make more sense for me to play a Scout than a Heavy (given, for example, there are 2 other heavies on the team that are well and above better than me as heavy, but we may be even as scouts). In this case, though, because I haven't logged as much time as our previous other two people, I don't have the chance to change the outcome in a similar way as the other people.
I know you don't do things for another class in an MMO, but that's SLIGHTLY different than in this case.
I think they had the right idea from the interview of making it random (not quite as often here) OR based on achievements. Give people both, not just one. I think that's the best way to do it.
Not a bad idea, let the people who want to achievement whore, albeit achievement servers or just earning them the good ol' fashioned way, get their unlocks as well as people who don't care can get them randomly. That would encourage people who aren't "good" at the game to still think "hey, I can get the new weapon randomly, I might get lucky". Not a bad idea at all. Have both.
I honestly think that was the intention from that interview I linked above. I just wonder if its ACTUALLY working, or if its some sort of strange scenario where the random generator was rolling off too fast from the central steam servers because of the massive influx of players (free weekend + updates?)
Regardless of what it is I am giving them until Monday morning to get this shit fixed. After the free weekend is over this better be fixed. If it isn't..well there game has gone to shit officially and they will lose a large fan base. Already people are saying they won't play until it's fixed.
I'm upset about it, but not for the same reasons. I'd be perfectly happy if the random were LESS frequent and involved the class you were playing AND also provided you the ability to earn them through achievements. From their interview I linked, the overwhelming feedback they've received about Weapon Unlocks is that making it achievement based doesn't please the majority of players. The interview also mentioned they wanted to provide BOTH the ability to earn it through achievements AND randomly. I don't see what's wrong with both worlds there.
My reference to half-assed arguments was in regards to the whole "hardcore" vs "causal" debate. In a game of this nature it seems specious, especially when its easy to cater to both.
See, I think that's why it HASN'T been fixed yet, the free weekend. The last thing you want to do is require ANOTHER patch on what would be a big selling point weekend.
I really, really don't think this is a case of "working as intended" but more along the lines of "Shit, didn't expect that, but we can't fix it now because it'll kill the weekend"
Also "So...how are the weapons unlocked?" "OMG IT'S RANDOM!!!"
EDIT: At least it's not a LOT of people making posts like that. There's still some good on the internet.
Like MiracleMan mentioned, unlocking via the old method becomes discouraging for those that don't play as often. I don't have much time to play TF2 these days. Despite Heavy Weapons Guy being my 3rd main class, I had only managed to unlock the sanvich. I've been unable to play the game enough to do things like fire 50 billion bullets nonstop and to kill 80 people without dying. It was frustrating because I wanted the extra weapons, and despite playing the game on and off for the greater part of 7 months since the update, I had only managed the first unlockable.
I think a lot of people are overreacting to rage on this. The update hasn't even been live for 24 hours, and people are screaming that it's bullcrap that they don't have their unlockables yet.
Relax. Enjoy the game. Get the weapons when they come.
The fact that this is stopping achievement farming is outstanding. Achievements mean nothing in my eyes, especially when people are playing custom maps designed solely for unlocking achievements and weapons. Not to mention people hacking and instant unlocks. People are pissed because they can no longer take advantage of the system and get what they want RIGHT NOW.
This doesn't mean I think the current system is perfect. I think it needs much work (snowWhite joined the server last night and immediately had the sniper's bow). But is it ruining the game? No. Will Valve loose their massive fan base? No. Will they fix it? You bet.
I would hate to work at Valve for that exact reason. Valve continually provides updates for FREE to all of their games and they make a conscious effort to listen to the fans. By comparison EA may release two patches for a game and proceed to ignore the game and it's fans entirely. Bethesda charges for updates. If Valve wants to test a new system for awhile then by all means they're allowed to because they'll change it if gamers don't like it. It isn't necessary for people to explode at a corporation that is so involved with it's customers the way they are.
If you don't like the game anymore, don't play anymore, or wait until they "fix" it. I'm sure you've gotten your $20 out of it by now.
I agree there, which is why a mix of both worlds would be nice...
I know you and I have discussed this on GChat, but I think it works out better in the long run.
Make it so that anytime you get a "Look on the bright side" type message, a random thing goes off and says "OH HEY, LETS SEE IF YOU GET SOMETHING". Hell have it increase chance the more you play a class. There are some of us that just don't try and get achievements at all and just go with it.
Clarification Edit: While also keeping the achievements in as a way to get the weapons.
Lets also be honest. Some of the achievements are less about skill and more about "OH HEY I NEED THIS SOMEONE UBER ME I'M A SCOUT!" or plain old dumb luck
The key here, I believe, is fun.
Have we all forgotten how to just play the game and have fun together? When did this become a contest? When did it become 'pro' tier?
Prag, you and I share a similar view on the game. Especially as a sniper player, I really want these new weapons as well. But I don't think TF2 should have ever been a game that caters to 'busting your balls to gain outlandish achievements' just to become a better player.
I'm becoming convinced that a hybrid system is what we need ultimately. But as I stated before, the game is hardly ruined. This should have never become a contest that focuses on unlocking. The game always has been and always should be about having fun.
This right here is why I'm all for the random, but toned down to not give them out every 30 seconds.
I understand that statement, and it was a weapon well deserved. But such an idea is invalidated, in my opinion, by the existence of achievement farming maps, and the fact that it alienates the players who are good at the game, yet don't have the incredible amounts of time to devote to unlocking those key weapons.
Many people were getting the weapons that didn't rightfully deserve them. It sort of defeated the purpose, making those that weren't willing to 'cheat' but weren't able to get them in good time.
So, this means one of three things... 1) The skill (or achievements) is beyond my level OR 2) the achievements are too stupid for everyday game experience OR 3) the old Achievment system didn't work.
On one hand I am upset that some of the achievements are pointless but necessary to unlock a new weapon. On the other hand, I'll be damned if a new guy walks up to me and uses his ubersaw on me when he has less than 5% the experience or skill.
The system should reward you for playing with utmost skill but also for dedication. The new weapon achievement unlocks should be lessened AND those that accumilate "X" hours, or kills, or heals should ALSO be rewarded.
Playing my ass off and getting a weapon for a class that I am not fond of is a waste. I know... "maybe the new weapon will make you like the class" but I know that my skills are not well suited to sniper, spy, or scout. I can play them and do some good but only if the situation requires me to change.
My system would be as follows.... Each class has 50 achievements. 10 achievements you receive a random unlock within that class. 20 another unlock, 30 another, so on.
For each 100 hours of TF2 you randomly get one or the other, grant a new unlock OR level up a weapon (Same weapon but with bonuses). Every 100 hrs equals a chance to unlock a new weapon or at least level up an existing weapon. Make it 50 hrs for a class and the odds increase that you will get a weapon.
Another option.... just assign skill points for hours, achievements, and random. Then "charge" for upgrades and unlocks....
What does this do... rewards skill, effort, and branches out