Need a Good UPS

mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
edited March 2004 in Hardware
Well tonight we had a power surge at the apartment and I lost a CPU. Its a gonner. Well thats enough of that so I need a decent quality UPS.

I dont need something that will keep the machines running for a long period of time if the power goes out. Just something that will keep the power going when there is a drop and something that will filter out the surges like I just had.

Any suggestions. I know some placed have deals on these and I guess I will start looking for a deal.

Comments

  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    You can get cheapy APC or even Belkin UPS' from office supply stores for as little as $40. That's what I had on mine for the exact same reason. I wasn't looking for 20 minutes of uptime, I just wanted to be protected from sags or brownouts. So far, so good. They've been on there for a year and everything's peachy.
  • edited February 2004
    Occasionally 1000-1500VA APC UPSes go on sale for only $99. These can keep my computer, SM18 AND 2 monitors (both in sig) up for 6 minutes.

    After loosing PSUs to surges too many times, I quit messing around and got the best protection I could afford (which oftentimes is the best way to do anything).
  • GnomeWizarddGnomeWizardd Member 4 Life Akron, PA Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    550 apc sams was 45 bucks if i member right
  • edited February 2004
    APC 500 works well for me, found it at a local computer store for $60, didn't have a real good warm and fuzzy about the included insurance, so I just updated my home insurance to include computers and appliances against surges/brownouts, etc, was only $10 extra for four months of coverage.

    Won't help if the computer burns up, but at least you don't have the added burden of funding a new one out of pocket
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited February 2004
    Definately APC....You can go out to the APC web site and put in your system and your perfered power requirements then it will give you a list of suggested bakups to choose from for the job.

    I did that for my rig and it suggested the smart ups 1000 I thinik it was but that was something like 1000 bucks so I went out to Ebay and started looking for that set up... Sure enough I ended getting the whole smart ups system for something like 200 bucks shipped...

    I'm sure that belkins are fine too but I would try and figure out what set up you need or want then look for it on ebay... A ton of busted .com's and offices going out of business are selling that kind of stuff and it's all still in pretty good shape. :)

    GL,
    "g"
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    TheSmJ wrote:
    Occasionally 1000-1500VA APC UPSes go on sale for only $99. These can keep my computer, SM18 AND 2 monitors (both in sig) up for 6 minutes.

    After loosing PSUs to surges too many times, I quit messing around and got the best protection I could afford (which oftentimes is the best way to do anything).
    That's how I got mine: $100 at CompUSA for the BackUPS XS 1500 (1500VA). I decided I needed something beefier than a surge strip for the dual 248 Opteron, since it's worth more than my car.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited February 2004
    drasnor wrote:
    since it's worth more than my car.
    -drasnor :fold:
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Well I guess I might as well get a good one. I will have 4 computers on it now. Maybe more to add later.

    I think I can get a refund or something with my PowerStrip Warranty for my CPU.
  • edcentricedcentric near Milwaukee, Wisconsin Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    Yes, APC. I have three of them. One has taken a hard hit and never blinked. Lightening took out our poll transformer.
    I have everything pluged in to them. I don't want a surge back from a printer cooking my mobo or something.
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    drasnor wrote:
    That's how I got mine: $100 at CompUSA for the BackUPS XS 1500 (1500VA). I decided I needed something beefier than a surge strip for the dual 248 Opteron, since it's worth more than my car.

    -drasnor :fold:

    Sam's Club has 1100 VA Backups Pros for $115.00 (about). I run both the P4 (which right now is folding at 3 GHz) and the Barton (2 GHz) on one of those, one reason I got my LCD panel was to leave extra capacity for the boxes. Only thing NOT on that is the Laser, that is on a Tripplite ISOBar surge strip. Inkjet, scanner, router, cable modem, calculator, all on same UPS.

    John D.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited February 2004
    So since the price of these APC UPSs like go up exponentially with the power protection I am thinking about 2 for my 4 computers at the apartment. 3 are FAH only with the bare min (mobo, 256 RAM, small HDD, CPU, cheap vid card and PSU). Could I run 2 bare min computers off of a 500VA or even a 350 VA UPS?

    The 500VA is 300W. Is that enough for 2 FAH computers? Sams seems to be cheaper than BB, CC and Newegg. They only have the 500U and 1100U UPS tho.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    mmonnin wrote:
    The 500VA is 300W. Is that enough for 2 FAH computers? Sams seems to be cheaper than BB, CC and Newegg. They only have the 500U and 1100U UPS tho.
    The wattage rating of the UPS is how much the DC-AC converter it has can handle. The APC driver software monitors your UPS loading, so to give you a frame of reference, my single 1.8GHz Northwood pulls ~200W by itself according to the software.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited February 2004
    So I couldnt run 2 computers off of a 500VA UPS?
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    mmonnin wrote:
    So I couldnt run 2 computers off of a 500VA UPS?

    Add the Power Supply ratings for each box. Then multiply by 85% of that subtotal-- formula is: (PSU rating 1+ PSU Rating 2)*.85. Then add the load for your display and printer, when active. Add in the ratings of the other things (modem, etc) you have plugged in (use transformer input values). Buy for the total. Figure ten minutes on avrage before UPS will shut down with zero power to it.

    If power supplies are 350 Watts input each and you use a low power draw LCD panel, then an 800 VA will be enough for two boxes. I get away with a 1100 becaue all the rest of the stuff is real low power draw. I tested the thing, with the P4 and the Barton running, scanner on and plugged into UPS, printer on and plugged into UPS, and cable modem plugged into UPS, I got 15 minutes of on time without the UPS dying. To do the test, I ran it unloaded and plugged in for 24 hours to peak charge battery.

    When you overload an APC by 15% or more over rating, it is draining battery to match load. That means if you overload it to boot, it is feeding from battery and line incoming if power is good or slightly OVERvoltaged. Load it 25% over, it does an alarm and cutout within 1 minute, so it NEVER overheats-- if it is not a low-end APC. If it is a low-end APC the valuse drop to 12% and 20% and you get an immediate UPS shutdown.

    What you are paying for is the batteries, when you pay for more expensive wattage (VA @RMS) of same series. Better series lets you tune the power better, both as to how it works with feeding from both sources at extreme need and as to how well it live conditions and how fast it cuts to battery with sudden surge handling needs that are large surges.

    Batteries are most expensive part if we are talking the parts of UPS. The 1100 has TWO batteris in it, units each of about 600 VA out. It can handle about 1200 VA load versus incoming for a short time, too much more and batteries overheat. If they overheat enough, the vent caps pop, and you get a hydrogen gas release. UPS shuts down instead of letting that happen.

    So, if you have two PSUs hooked to it under about 90% load of rating in VA input, you have an overload if the total of the two is 700 VA actual draw and the output rating is 550. The UPS will thermal shutdown very often doing this. Figure boot draws on average 1.25 to 1.5 times the normal working load. you are buying PSUs that will boot your box and not blink at all if you are buying PSUs right. I assume since the sytems are running well, that the PSUs were speced right, so I am using an average to calc true need. You can get 750 to 800 VA UPSs but they are not commonly available. 1100 is made in such volume that you pay less per 100 VA than for a 800 VA UPS of same series, and difference is such that you might as well be purchase planning for load you will upgrade to in next year to year and a half.

    UNDERLOADING a UPS is never bad, overloading it is a real mess.

    I figured I would give you the estimating rule that APC uses on average, though they spec about 15% higher VA than is needed for absolute no-damage to hardware warranty because of gassing out that overheated batteries do. The overheating effect can be compared to the effect of running a car in Florida versus Michigan. I have to replace three year batteries every 1.5 to 2 years in Florida, and Florida has its own warranty payback table for how much is refunded due to temps alone. Battery gradually gets heat damaged.

    The APC cells are actually more heat stable, but overload it 15% or more for its life, the time warranty will be void. APC will KNOW this simply by condition of batteries in unit on return. Thus time warranty is based on what they recommend. Do not follow it, you have no lifetimne minimum warranty as to batteries or even whole UPS.

    John D-- writing another brochure, sorry, but needed to explain how things tie in to let folks see logic of rule given earlier.
  • EyesOnlyEyesOnly Sweden New
    edited February 2004
    I'm thinking of a 800 VA. It might be over the top but atleast it will be enough and leave room for expension. Drasnor is that with monitor? mmonin if the rigs you're talking about don't have a monitor you might be fine with a 500 Va.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited February 2004
    As I said 3 are FAH only. I should be getting a 4 port KVM so I wont have to switch monitors and stuff around when I want to do something. I would have my monitor, my computer, and another computer on a beefier UPS and the other 2 machines on a smaller UPS. The only other thing I have is a Switch and Z560s.

    Ageek: I have a 330W True Antec on my main, 380W True on my second NF7, 350W Antec on the KX7 and a generic 250W on the K7S5A. I know that none of the FAH only machines uses even 250W when running since they are all bare min machines. So I dont think the PSU rating*.85 will work.

    I think I will get another good power surge like the one I have (or better) since it has a lifetime warranty for anything plugged into it.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited February 2004
    EyesOnly wrote:
    I'm thinking of a 800 VA. It might be over the top but atleast it will be enough and leave room for expension. Drasnor is that with monitor? mmonin if the rigs you're talking about don't have a monitor you might be fine with a 500 Va.
    Most definitely without the monitor. My monitor is a 21" CRT and draws 80W.
    Keep in mind your computer will draw less with fewer peripherals and equipment hooked up. For instance, I bet I could shave about 10W off by losing my second hard drive in the P4, somewhat more by removing the GeForce 3 Ti500.

    The nice thing about my 1500VA is that it takes battery cartridges that are made of two sealed lead-gel cells of the kind I use in my model rocketry ignition system. I can get a pair of them for $30-$40 at the local battery store, tape them together and add the cable dongle from the dead battery pack to make a new battery. That's about half what APC wants for a replacement cartridge, though it theoretically voids my warranty (who's going to know if you do a good job? The P/N's on the batteries match up, and all you have to do is be careful when removing the original stickers).

    -drasnor :fold:
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited February 2004
    Use APC's utility and see what it recommends for the folding boxes
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited February 2004
    I cant afford that. Thats a 500VA for each computer for anything over 3 minutes of uptime.

    Doesnt give a choice of having multiple computers.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited February 2004
    Yes it does, just a sec... I'll grab a link
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited February 2004
    http://www.apc.com/template/size/apc/index.cfm?temp_country=US&action=choose_device

    That's it. You want to use the advanced UPS selector.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited February 2004
    Hmm I was using a different selector.

    It says each FAH only computer needs 174. My main needs a 350VA by itself. Not sure what to get yet.

    Well I am going back to the apartment with no net so I might be a day or 2 before I reply.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2004
    I was looking around and I found this 725VA UPS for $50. Its $100 on CC.
    http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0149974

    APC Link
    http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0149974

    Looks like a good deal. Its rated at 450W which should handle my main system very easily with monitor.
  • edited March 2004
    Marc, I run my gaming P4 off a Tripp Lite 500, along with the monitor and it's good for around 8-10 minutes. For my farm rigs, I run 4 boxes off of 2 Belkin 800's with no problems but they can't take the load of 3 high poser AMD or P4 machine on 1 of them. The other 2 dualies at my house are running on separate Belkin 500's. I didn't have too much luck with APC's UPS I bought; the damn thing crapped out right after the warrantee was up and I went bak with Belkin instead because their warrantee was longer.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2004
    Well I ordered 2 of those last night. From what everyone said above APC is the best.
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    muddocktor wrote:
    Marc, I run my gaming P4 off a Tripp Lite 500, along with the monitor and it's good for around 8-10 minutes. For my farm rigs, I run 4 boxes off of 2 Belkin 800's with no problems but they can't take the load of 3 high poser AMD or P4 machine on 1 of them. The other 2 dualies at my house are running on separate Belkin 500's. I didn't have too much luck with APC's UPS I bought; the damn thing crapped out right after the warrantee was up and I went bak with Belkin instead because their warrantee was longer.

    Belkins are decent, they have some of the best UPSs around. But, OVERALL, I have had less than 5% failure rate with all the APCs I have on client sites and at home. There are three in the house, one protects Mom's computer. Normally, if an APC craps out, it has taken a massive surge hit or many smaller hits in a short time while battery is low, or not been initially charged for 24 hours before being put into use. The APC I use for client boxes I am working on was mfr'd in 1995.

    I would say APC, Belkin, Tripplite as the best three mfrs for surge protectors and for UPSs. For surge suppressors, I think Tripplite ISObars are best of all. For UPSs they are third because of specific battery technology used.

    Within APC lines, note that the Backups Pros and up as far as UPS produict lines, are much more likely to survive major hits-- they can completely disconnect UPS internal circuits from incoming power faster with a major surge, and use a very fast response BREAKER on incoming hot to do so. The smaller Office series is not as robust against big surges. It is more likely to die with a big surge. The Pros also condition power better than the Office or Backups do (Backups and Backup Pros are two different lines).

    Also, APCs have something most people do not realize is there, on the back end by the outlets, on Backups and Pros, there is a resettable breaker button. If they get a catastrophic surge hitting them, the breaker stays off until manually reset by pushing button in with the UPS unplugged from wall. THEN you plug the UPS into wall again, and if it has fully discharged its battery, you want to charge it for 24 hours with no load running off of it before loading it up again with computer or TV or whatever it needs to protect.

    John D.
Sign In or Register to comment.