So I've had my shuttle system for 2 weeks now...

DanGDanG I AM CANADIAN Icrontian
edited June 2004 in Hardware
Mr holesaw, meet Mr case.
Decided to give my baby a bit of breathing room, so I've decided to mod it.
80mm intake for the radeon 9800pro, and 80mm blowhole with an exhaust fan. 37 cfm @ 3000rpm @ 27db, so it's not intrusive at all. While running F@H, cpu temp is about 55°c, which is not too bad for an A64 in a tiny system with a radeon 9800pro and 10k raptor.
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Comments

  • MedlockMedlock Miramar, Florida Member
    edited May 2004
    Looks good, love those fan grills!
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited May 2004
    55 degrees after the mod? scared to ask but.... what was it before the mod? Are you using the cooler that came with the system or a after market one? I was gonna do one of those but your scaring me with the temps so far

    Tex
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    Dan, could you do me a favor and try an experiment for me (I don't have a shuttle system, so I can't). Grab a piece of paper, cardboard, styrofoam, or whatever you have lying around. Make a duct between the CPU fan and the blowhole on the top. Have the fans blowing the same direction (top intake, rear exhaust) and see what that does for your temps. :)
  • DanGDanG I AM CANADIAN Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    It was about 60-65 before with the fan on high, now with the fan on low it's down to mid to low 50's.
    It's currently the stock heat pipe cooler. Is there something better out there that won't make my ears bleed?
  • FormFactorFormFactor At the core of forgotten
    edited May 2004
    Looks awesome!!

    I have some questions for you...

    How did you go about cutting teh holes? What size do they need to be? and what tools did you use?

    Also what kind of USB device do you have plugged in thurr? Its a purty cable.

    Also can anyone suggest a better fan to use in teh shuttle than teh stock 1?


    Thanks in advance.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    Is there something better out there that won't make my ears bleed?
    Depends on how much room is in that thing. I doubt it. Don't worry about it, anyhow. I've successfully proven that at least the older Athlons are quite happy operating up to and possibly a bit above their maximum die temperature (90*C in this case). As long as you keep it below 65-70*C or so, you don't have anything to worry about.
    Also can anyone suggest a better fan to use in teh shuttle than teh stock 1?
    Step 1: remove fan grill from the rear of the case
    Step 2: Put in a SmartFan2 in place of the stock fan


    //EDIT
    Dan, actually, you could also just try flipping the blowhole fan around first (so it's an intake fan) and see what that does for your temps. :)
  • DanGDanG I AM CANADIAN Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    Geeky, the cooling system actually is an L shape, the heatsink, a set of heat pipes then mounts to the back of the case, so there's no normal cpu fan per say.
    Hopefully this pic shows how it sets up inside. I'm pretty sure I understand what you wanted, and I think this shows how it wouldn't really work with the existing setup, but if I missed something, let me know and I will give it a shot.
    I'm gonna run it this way for a while and see how it goes, then switch it up, probably on the weekend to see if it makes any difference.

    Formfactor, just an 80mm metal hole saw and a drill. The edges were kind of rough when the holesaw finished, so a dremel with a round sanding bit worked like a charm. I didn't have access to a drill press, so I had to so it with a hand drill which was a bit more difficult. The usb cable is supposed to light up, but the led inside seems to have stopped working. It's from the startech mutant mods, usb 2, they come in blue, red and yellow.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    This is what I was thinking
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    Depending upon the CFM rating of the exhaust fan, that might just be too much intake, causing the air to just stagnate in the case. But if the exhaust fan can exhaust it all, it logically seems like your method would be good, Geeky.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    if it's ducted, it can't directly cause stagnation in the rest of the case. The duct will, however, reduce airflow across other components in the case to basically zero... :-/
  • DanGDanG I AM CANADIAN Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    I do have one of the TT duct mod thingies at home, and it should fit. I can switch the fan around to blowing in and aimed at the rear exhaust fan this weekend to see what it does to the temps. The speed of the heat pipe fan can be set to auto or to manual control, hi, med or low, so I'll try it with the different speeds too.
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    GHoosdum wrote:
    Depending upon the CFM rating of the exhaust fan, that might just be too much intake, causing the air to just stagnate in the case. But if the exhaust fan can exhaust it all, it logically seems like your method would be good, Geeky.


    Right. Ideally, in and out should be about equal. If cannot do this, intake can be a tib under outblowing\exhausting fan.

    If temps go higher than what you have, if 55 C is CPU temp, then try unplugging intake fan, turn so it blows in, leave unplugged, see if it rotates fast or slow or not at all. IF not at all, then you might want a hole and an unpowered flourescent glow-fin fan. JUST the hole will ventilate and balance pressure itself some, though I understand for looks you might want the fan LED lit if it has one.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    Ideally, in and out should be about equal.

    Actually, ideally, you should have somewhat higher exhaust airflow than intake, in general.

    However, general rules go out the window under certain circumstances, too. Like in my SLK-3700AMB. The only way to get decent cooling out of it was to put 2 120mm fans on the side panel and 2 80mm fans in the top. So, it has 3 120mm intake fans (2 90cfm, 1 131cfm), and 2 80mm exhaust fans. And that's it. And it works just fine.

    //Edit
    If the fan is not powered, it won't rotate at all. There is no way there's enough airflow through that case in one direction or another to make it move at all.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited May 2004
    I would try with the duct and no top fan if the heatpipe fan does more than the top fan. If the top fan pushes less CFM wouldnt that hurt the heatpipe fan?
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    It depends on the pressure drop across the duct. For instance, using 2' of dryer duct to go from the CPU socket on a KX7 to my bedroom window is enough that a 50cfm CPU fan benefits greatly from having a 40cfm fan on the other end of the duct.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited May 2004
    I tried a lot of differant setups and always got better temps just blowing fresh cold air right on top the cpu from a 120mm in the side of the case then any combo of front and rear intake/exhaust. many of my own tests contradicted excepted theory so I take all the advice anymore witha grain of salt.

    As far as his question of a better fan... It all depends on how much room you have in there. A stock fan will give you good temps anjd they are very low noise. I have a 3200+ athlon 64 with a hugfe round all copper zalman iwth a 92mm fan and its very quiet and my temps are in the low 40's I think the model number was 7000A but I might be off. All depends on how much room you actually have over the cpu. That stock cooler is a major compremize as far as serious cooling though.

    Tex
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    Geeky1 wrote:
    Actually, ideally, you should have somewhat higher exhaust airflow than intake, in general.

    However, general rules go out the window under certain circumstances, too. Like in my SLK-3700AMB. The only way to get decent cooling out of it was to put 2 120mm fans on the side panel and 2 80mm fans in the top. So, it has 3 120mm intake fans (2 90cfm, 1 131cfm), and 2 80mm exhaust fans. And that's it. And it works just fine.

    //Edit
    If the fan is not powered, it won't rotate at all. There is no way there's enough airflow through that case in one direction or another to make it move at all.

    Dual Ball bearing and hydrowave bearing fans sure will, if there is significant air flow in the direction the fan is oriented toward. Depends on how good the bearings are, and how big a motor winding set is needed to run them. MAGLEV fans, different story, no mag field, no rise of spinlde-blade assembly into magfield bearings enough to be efficient unless they have power to them to gen the bearing field effect.

    As to more exhaust, how can you do that without inducing a semi-vacuum, in amounts enough to make it worth doing???? either you will get a pressure drop, or air will be pulled through intake fan openings and push fans up on bearings toward exhaust side. With equal pressure, my intake fasn wear out first. When I put lower volume fans in front, total airflow out exhaust dropped, and the fans's bearings decayed much faster. Now I run almost totally equal input and output for the fans I install, let PSU fannign exhaust make a small additonal exhaust-- and the side hole in side panel on one side of the Prescott box is sucking air IN. With no fan. IF case were vacuum tight and no air leaks, yes, Geeky-- not gonna happen with most cases, you will get air bleeding in from here and there to equalize pressure inside.
  • TexTex Dallas/Ft. Worth
    edited May 2004
    I have never wore out a fan in a home setup. All my stuff runs 24/7 but I guess I swap out cases and componets enough I don't remember having a fan wear out in my house that I can remember but I play with differant types of fans and ones iwth lights and crap I suppose enough that I don't give them enough time to ever wear out.. In servers at a buisness that ran 24/7 for years I have but....

    Tex
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited May 2004
    DanG

    There are some rules of thumb (as have been already mentioned).

    1) You want greater exhaust flow than intake flow. Air will find its way into the case from everywhere.

    2) In a typical tower PC case the best configuration, in order of adding, is Top rear exhaust...then a top blowhole...Sometimes adding side intakes and front intakes can do nothing more than add to the looks rather than the cooling effectiveness.

    Now SFF changes the dynamics a bit.

    The top blowhole is a good idea but I may suggest trying it as an exhaust rather than an intake. The side intake to the GPU is probably a good idea and I would think a low RPM (and low noise) fan would be best. Having high CFM there wouldn't make too much of a difference.

    Ambient air temperature plays a big part. With air cooling you can only get to that level...not lower.

    Best to look at exhausting the warm air as a priority.
  • DanGDanG I AM CANADIAN Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    Mediaman, I'm currently running the fan on top as an exhaust, but will switch it around and attach my TT duct mod to it this weekend to see what that does to both the case temp and cpu temp. As for a side fan, unless it's hooked up on the outside of the case, it's not going to fit, the screws for the grill barely clear the caps on the video card, and to be on the safe side I taped them up.
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited May 2004
    I've done a few ghetto ducts in my life...

    Perhaps ducting the CPU heatsink directly from the top blowhole will take the edge off the CPU temps. Simply the act of a direct path to the "outside air" is going to help.

    I remember how tight it is in the video card area. Barely room to fart. Have you got room for another hole ahead of behind that top blowhole? I'm not saying to do it but maybe an intake pipe to the heatsink and then just a blowhole to exhaust warm air from the case.

    Modding for thought. :)
  • edited May 2004
    One other thing that will help you for ventilation on that Shuttle case, DanG, is to cut out that cheesegrater vent hole section on the back of the case where the heatsink exhausts and put a fan grille in it's place. You wouldn't believe how much backpressure that kind of built-in grille structure makes. Check my attached pic:
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    Or, cut it off and just leave it off altogether. Just don't cut any fingers on the fins behind it.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    Hey, what kind of screws hold that radiator in place? are they bolts or machine screws or what?
  • DanGDanG I AM CANADIAN Icrontian
    edited May 2004
    No room on the top for another blowhole, the cdrom drive is too close to the top in the front and there is about a half inch behind the blowhole, so that's not gonna work. I was going to cut the grille off, but that would involve taking the board out and I just wan't ready for that yet when I was building the system.
    The top part of the heat pipe just sits there, the fan shroud has 4 holes on the back that holds the rad in place via 4 thumb screws.
    We'll see this weekend how things go with the duct directing air down and through the rad.
  • edited May 2004
    DanG, you can cut that out without taking the mobo out of the box if you are careful and follow a few precautions. Take the box down to where you have free access to that grating(remove drives and heatpipe and stuff), then tape either a piece of plastic or thick cloth to the inside lower back of the chassis, covering the mobo. Be sure to completely cover and seal the mobo area with the plastic or thick cloth. Carefully cut out the grating so that it looks neat with the grill of your choice, then turn the box over and use compressed air or canned air to blow the metal and grinding wheel dust out. Then, remove the plastic or cloth and do it again, thoroughly cleaning any traces of dust out of the machine. I've done this several times with cases with no problems whatsoever; you just have to make sure that you isolate the mobo and components from the metal dust.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    That's awfully risky anyhow, mudd.

    Dan, the reason I asked about how the rad is held in place is that I just had a really good idea.

    Two fans. One on the inside of the case pushing air through the radiator, the other on the outside pulling it through.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited May 2004
    Now that I have some time to respond to this...
    John_D wrote:
    Dual Ball bearing and hydrowave bearing fans sure will, if there is significant air flow in the direction the fan is oriented toward.
    Key word: significant. You won't get enough directed airflow through a case that just unplugging a fan will allow it to spin. The only way to get a fan to spin with just air pressure is to use relatively focused, high-velocity jets, such as what you get when you stack a running fan on top of an unpowered one, or using compressed air to spin the blades.
    As to more exhaust, how can you do that without inducing a semi-vacuum
    Uh, yeah, John, that's kind of the point... :rolleyes:
    either you will get a pressure drop, or air will be pulled through intake fan openings
    This isn't a question of either/or. You create a slightly negative pressure inside the case, and air will rush in through every available opening to fill that void. You will get a pressure drop and you'll get air being pulled through the intake fan openings (along with other places)
    and push fans up on bearings toward exhaust side. With equal pressure, my intake fasn wear out first.
    John, the increased velocity of air through the intake fan cutouts due to slightly negative pressure inside the case is not sufficient to do a damn thing to the intake fans or their bearings. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, the reason the intake fans wear out faster is because they get to deal with more dust than the exhaust fans?
    When I put lower volume fans in front, total airflow out exhaust dropped
    That would be because axial fans can't pull a vacuum very well, John. And while the airflow may or may not be lower, it still works better than setups with equal or greater intake cfm than exhaust cfm.
    and the fans's bearings decayed much faster
    Not due to negative pressure, they didn't.
    Now I run almost totally equal input and output for the fans I install, let PSU fannign exhaust make a small additonal exhaust-- and the side hole in side panel on one side of the Prescott box is sucking air IN.
    Gee, John, I thought negative pressure was worse. Why are you running a system with a cooling system set up for it, then? :rolleyes:;D
    IF case were vacuum tight and no air leaks, yes, Geeky-- not gonna happen with most cases, you will get air bleeding in from here and there to equalize pressure inside.

    First of all, that's the point. And second of all, the point is not to create an absolute vacuum, which can't even be approached using axial fans anyhow, the point is to get as much cool air into the case-and moving across everything in it-as possible. And you do that with negative pressure, not equal or positive pressure, John.
  • DanGDanG I AM CANADIAN Icrontian
    edited June 2004
    Well I tried flipping the fan over and the temps stayed within a degree of one another, so suck vs blow doesn't seem to do much of anything.
    I took my tv tuner out because I don't use it, so I'm gonna throw my pci slot blower fan to see if 42cfm makes a difference. I'll probably keep the blowhole fan on blow then and see how that works.
  • MAGICMAGIC Doot Doot Furniture City, Michigan Icrontian
    edited June 2004
    i dunno if your still looking for a cooling solution for that but this seems like its worth a look..http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/ex-wat-31.html
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