Site dynamics

Straight_Man

We have something going on that I as a user feel needs to be discussed.

Enthusiasts come in all shapes and colors and they all have different ideas adn tehy all have different experiences and vocabularies. Each aspect of tech has its own vocabulary. Budding enthusiats do not know how to ask qusetions in areas that they have not solved, areas of specialty, because they do not know techese.

If we give a user a fix that does not work for that user because user tries it in combo with what he\she thinks he\she already knows, and adds steps, or because user does not know how to use fix appropriately and how Windows underlying areas work, the user simply does not know how to categorize the problem to place in our granularity framework and does not know how to apply that to problem solving. Lack of knowledge builds frustration, and fixes that fix many things and also in fact and in truth can be so complex to relate in words and express without using condition set math, boolean logic, and a knowledge of system including user interdymanics that users are trying to form.

If we enforce granularity too tightly, we have two problems. Users do not know where to look, or how, becasue they do not understand the underlying vocabulary inherent in tech and they need problem fixed now not in 5 years. Problem is this, and I will summarize and elaborate based on repsonse, but will not tolerate just wrong because all of us think differently and I need to know how to communiate with YOU to show you how to apply fixes and need to see what words you understnad to do so. AND, you need to know how I cna think to know if I can even help you well. This is true for every pair of us. If we take one set of ideas, anyone who does not understand our site struicture, is gonna make mistakes in placing ideas. If we over-enforce granularity and brevity, anyone who does not understand the words needed to see why those brief words were chosen will not get the message. User\enthusiast topics will nto be stated in scope of an over-organized structure, because the users that are starting out simply do not know where to put things.

Bottom line, computers think in math, binary math-- and are designed by humans who cannot possibly think like all other people. there will always be a great many who do not know the place or words to use to frame things to fit them into a structure of imposed granularity. Lack of knowledge in a granualrized by specialty world is a two edged sword, and it cuts with frustration at not knowing what you do not know. We have an attitude of helping here, that in many cases gets fauoght by user frustration at not knowing how to stick things in right places because they do not know the vocabulary or how that word is applied to fix problems, nor how a surface issue can be determined to be software or hardware, even.

BUT, we have no way we can show this as the site is scoped now. Because no person can know all, each of us can and will not know something the other user knows. because, bottom line, we all know different things and think differently, we simply will each not know how to fit tings into a very complex info processing system that bottom line uses many kinds of math to process on the computer side of this system.

One thing we can do to have less firefigthting is to have an area for interdynamics discussion, another is an area for folks who do not have knowledge top state issues right is to just put what is their annoyance that is already frustrating the heck out of them adn let the mods sort it and link from statemtn to where it appears to go, while being aware that the more we granularize the harder it is for users to find things unless we can show how it interrelates and use google to index and show how google searches (mathematically, google uses a googleplex of cross indexing to aloow boolean searching, but many folks do not even know deeply how to use boolean or how that logic family works).

I think we need to allow for each thinking differently a huge lot, part of that will involve allowing different words and asking about what we do not understand instead of saying wrong, which increases frustration and helps to destroy calmness when what is needed for a good fix application is calm thought. To have users understand in first place where to put things, they have to understand the structure as they think now. To have users do that, we have to translate to how they think by and large.

So, for those who are starting out, and to encourage users to hang in, lets from both sides be VERY careful where and when we choose to flame. If I am expected to comply with rules I have to understand them not to react negatively. That takes many words. ACEEPT I do not know as valid, try to help fill in the gaps, allow osts the show how things fit or cross-index the structure so a user without vocabulary can look things up-- attitude in letting people show how things interrelate and not forcing strict compliance to our idea of how things ought to be organized to a degree that builds frustration in person we are trying to help will kill most flame wars by itself. Most fixes get misapplied by simply not knowing what fix is done when because we simply do not know where the fix can ripple in a system to break something else. And users go by what they see until they learn to think the way the site organizers do to a large degree.

I'll illustrate what I mean if asked, so I know what to illustrate and expand on this so folks get along better by knowing where to put things and what words to use to find and understand the info organization tree. Unl;ess we understand it, we cannot use this site real well, to help each other. If mods are firefighting, they cannot take time to also doc the structure. So many surface things can be interdynamically caused that
the fix for a surface problem might not be at all what some who specialize think it is, proven by user saying "that is not working." In fact colution might be to fix something that is dynamicly caused inside a box and dyunamically ripples, but without knowing what to look for when, fixing is a scary and frustrating thing that happens before the user even gets here to ask for help. "every one here does NOT knwo something, every one here fdoes not know all, and because machines are used to accomplish human things, and goals, what is most intuuitive for you will nto be most intuitive for me, somewhere down the line." Allow for that, big time, you would want the same, right??? This has to be doen group wide to work real well and let the mods do underlying work and nto have to impose penelties that at root are casued by folks having different goals and being frustrated at not being able to do what they want to do beofre they even post.

This is my dump, of frustration at not being understood, haveing run a forum BBS that ran all over the map of It for four years, way back when. But the humans are basically still the same. By our nature we each will be different-- lets acknowledge that, and show it by tellign why we think something is wrong, and try like the dickens not to make the person understand, but to help person build a framework.

Brian, I want an unclassified area, just for eating-at-you annoyances that you do nto know how to fit into right place, as a presort area, so users simply do not misplace and make more mod work. Ditto for a system interdynamics area. Anybody else feel the same??? This message really does not fit anywhere but pub, and is core to site success over long term, I think. So far, this logic of the site dynamics has not been put in one place, I tried part sof it in differnt places, got a firefighting reaction that it was not finely enough granularized to fit in thread where it was stuck. So, it goes in the frustration dump area as defined by mods and owners-- because being object of firefighting is hyper-frustrating when one wants to help. I'll add that I was surfing as surfing could be done then, back in 1988, and then onwards at every chance I can make while still doing what is needed to make a living.

Geeky1

Riiiiiiiight.

KingFish

Can someone translate that for me?

mmonnin

Moved to feedback.

oCoMiK

KingFish wrote:

Can someone translate that for me?

He lost me at the first run-on sentence.

Upon first viewing it I thought it was some type of manifesto. I started having flashbacks of the una-bomber sending me mail again!

Ocomik

bothered

John, forgive me if this seems rude but is English your first language? I have read a lot of your threads\posts and you obviously have a far greater knowlrdge than I do and I for one apprieciate the time and effort you make to help out others, but it is difficult reading. Could you simplify what you mean?

KingFish

Don't take my above post seriously John. I think that you are a bit misunderstood because you get too technical. Speak in plain language so the low IQ crowd such as myself can understand what you're trying to say. As far as the suggestions I believe what you're trying to say is open up a terminology section so people that have a low understanding of computers can use it as a reference point when people use technical jargon in their responses? Is that correct? If so, I think it's a good idea...

KF

oCoMiK

KingFish wrote:

Don't take my above post seriously John. I think that you are a bit misunderstood because you get too technical. Speak in plain language so the low IQ crowd such as myself can understand what you're trying to say. As far as the suggestions I believe what you're trying to say is open up a terminology section so people that have a low understanding of computers can use it as a reference point when people use technical jargon in their responses? Is that correct? If so, I think it's a good idea...

KF

Sentence structure and grammar/spelling would go along way in clarifying something you obviously put a lot of time into.

Like others, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk but I'm not going to read something that requires me to have to decipher something this cryptic.

Sorry...
Ocomik

Thrax

We could perhaps discuss the goings on if we could understand what you were trying to tell us.

You said it yourself, John. A large part of IT is proper communication skills.

I've done you a favor and translated your post:

<b>John_D - Site Interdynamics [Thrax REMIX]</b>

As a user of Short-Media, I have a feeling that needs to be discussed.

Computer enthusiasts come from all different levels of expertise. That expertise includes different levels of vocabulary. Budding enthusiasts are sometimes tasked to ask a question, but they don’t know how to do it because they don’t know the right vocabulary yet to ask.

If we supply a user with a fix for a problem and it doesn’t work because they:
1) Have mixed it with steps of their own
2) Don’t completely understand the solution
3) Don’t understand Windows

Or any numerous problems leading towards a good solution’s failure to solve, the user can’t explain how or why the good fix didn’t fix. Again, he doesn’t have the vocabulary to address the problem. A lack of knowledge builds frustration, and some solutions are complex to express in words without condition set math, Boolean logic, and a knowledge of user/system interdynamics. Users might not understand our given solutions.

If we make our forum criteria (That is, what threads go where), we have two problems:
1) Users might not know where to look
2) Users may become frustrated by us pigeonholing them repeatedly into certain forums. By moving their threads, we’re saying “You’re dumb! You put it in the wrong forum!”

[Significant editing of unneeded BS here]

The bottom line is that computers think in binary, and are designed by humans who don’t think like other, more casual people. There will always be a great many individuals who don’t understand computers, and don’t have the capacity as budding enthusiasts to know where to place a thread. If we enforce too fine a focus on thread location, these new computer users get frustrated because we have proven that they don’t know their stuff.

[Irrelevant paragraph eliminated here]

One thing we can do to alleviate some administrative work is to have a “I don’t know where this belongs!” area, for the new people who don’t know the site as well as most of us do. There are problems that people just don’t know how to properly explain or classify, and I think we need a forum to reflect that idea. Moderators could later move it if they felt like, or leave it as a forum showing new people that we’re here to help and have a forum <i>just for them</i> designed to mesh seasoned IT veterans with the new folks.

People could see that we’re out to serve all brands of interests on short-media. From the newbie to the oldie, to the clueless to the “I know eeeeeverything!” crowd, it’ll breed a friendlier atmosphere. People are more inclined to stay if they can receive quick help without feeling intimidated by knowledgeable administration bumping their threads around.

[Random babbling about Short-Media’s flamewars (What flamewars?) here]
[Senseless repetition of the last page of typing here]

[Malf, tib, grok, granularize, mfr, hyper-frustrating, blah blah blah]

Case in point, translating John’s post into something hyper-intelligible:

N00bs don’t always have the words to describe their problem. Let’s help them fit in here on Short-Media by designing a “General Help” forum so people who don’t know where something goes can receive help anyways. N00bs will feel accepted, and the veterans won’t feel compelled to point out that it’s in the wrong spot.

See? Concise, effective, and readable communication. John's fabled necessity of the IT market. Three pages of syntactically miserable tripe condensed into a little over one page of readable material, maintaining all the same meaning.

Necropolis

Cheers Thrax. I couldnt bring myself to read all of the first post.

John, your really going to have to start scaling your posts down a little, people are tending to skip over them because they are too long. We are the short attention span Internet Generation

muddocktor

Thanks for the translation, Thrax. I couldn't make heads nor tails out of John D's post there. Furthermore, I nominate you to be John D's official translator on posts where nobody can undersand it.


John D, no offense is intended in this whatsoever, but this post just flew over just about everyone's head as to what you were talking about. With your sometimes strange sentence structure and the misspellings and the length of your posts, it's very hard to follow your train of thought. I know that I'm not the best of spellers myself, but the letter transpositions in your words throw me for a loop and make me just start skipping whole sections of your posts, as does the extreme length of them. I know that you are trying to help and to fit in and "grok" with the rest of us (yes, I do know what grok is, RAH used to be a favorite author for me), but unless you simplify and shorten your posts some you will be just skipped over. Don't take this as a personal insult John, as it's not meant to be one. I just want you to be happy while interacting with the crowd here and the rest of us to understand what you are saying.

profdlp

One of the wonderful things about this site is that Joe Newb can come here and post their problem directly. In years past I have been to forums where every post was reviewed by a moderator before it was posted. Starting a new thread required special permission. I never hung around any of those sites long enough to see if my question would qualify as being "worthy" of their time.

Occasionally a new member is way off the mark when starting a thread, or jumps into the middle of a thread with an entirely new question. The thread will then be moved or split as the moderator of that particular forum sees fit. I wouldn't worry about the new chum not being able to find their thread after it is moved. I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone when I say that someone who is not capable of following simple, straightforward directions to the new location of their post is probably beyond our help anyway. I can't recall a single instance where this was a problem.

MediaMan

The OFFICIAL word from the management: aka the loose nuts behind the wheel.

Short-Media's mission statement is to provide a friendly and non-confrontational forum for all levels of computer users. We'll take a person who barely knows where the power button is to having the confidence to build their own PC and troubleshoot it.

We do so without resorting to ridicule, inappropriate language or other belittling behaviour. I've made it my goal to ensure EVERY member's questions and pleas for help will be treated with the appropriate respect.

We also learn from our members. I feel our members and staff bring a level of expertise not commonly found in one forum.

The Short-Media staff and core members have been responsible for seeing this goal through and improving upon it. They DO answer questions and honestly try to help every member. Threads are under constant watch. If they are not posted in the appropriate area then they are moved. If someone begins to step out of line then a staff member is there to eductate and if necessary...enforce.

Short-Media has been one of the least volatile forums in my experience. New members are personally welcomed both in PM and by other staff and members. It is our goal to help diagnose problems, solve situations and get more performance/stability/value from our own and other's PCs.

The admins designed a solid foundation...it is the entire staff that builds upon that foundation and that is evident by the many thanks and words of appreciation we receive. We also have many thanks and much appreciation for our members...they do make the difference.

When a member posts a question it is our desire to get to the source of that problem and its solution as quickly as possible. Part of that task is to keep threads ON-TOPIC. We ask questions to diagnose and we present the solution or possible solutions. If we can educate (or be educated) a little bit along the way...that's a bonus. The saying "give a person a fish and they'll eat for a day but teach a person to fish and they'll eat for life" has rung true so many times. The staff...all of us...try to do this where possible, appropriate...and relevant.

Short-Media has its shepards. If a member is a little lost then they are encouraged to ask. If they put a post in a wrong place then it is moved. The shepards are there to guide, to eductate and to help and they do a damn fine job of it.

Camman

anyone else find the irony in the fact that this thread was moved from one forum to another???

::Camman's comic relief:::

Geeky1

Irony: Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).

No, I see no irony in it what-so-ever. It was in the wrong forum, it was moved. What irony?

//End pedantic mode

Camman

Main Entry: ji·had
Variant(s): also je·had /ji-'häd, chiefly Brit -'had/
Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic jihAd
1 : a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty; also : a personal struggle in devotion to Islam especially involving spiritual discipline
2 : a crusade for a principle or belief


replace islam with "geeky1's annoyingness" and that is what I am going to now do to you.

/me declares jihad on geeky1

Geeky1

BRING IT, LITTLE MAN!

bothered

I heard a Muslim man on the radio talking about jihad. He said it was a personal quest for truth and honesty, He said it really meant change within ones self. Islam also says you should love your neighbour.

ishiii

John_D
I totally agree with you.
It is diffucult to help people who have no idea what is wrong, or how to implement the fix you offer.

As far your post goes, I for one had no problem understanding the point you were trying to get across.

People, all you need to do is come and live in korea for a year. Then you can decypher anything.
ish

tefleming

bothered wrote:

I heard a Muslim man on the radio talking about jihad. He said it was a personal quest for truth and honesty, He said it really meant change within ones self. Islam also says you should love your neighbour.

That's partially right. There are several types of Jihad, the one most commonly thought of is "Jihad of the sword" but also included are "Jihads of the heart and tongue" which are struggles on the individual level to be a better believer and to treat your neighbor properly.

(This is what I can recall from a class I took three semesters ago, I'll dig out my old notes if a further discussion is warranted.)