New idea to save money on SMx Machines....

EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
edited September 2003 in Folding@Home
This just came to me in another thread........

Why not run Knoppix Linux on the ICx machines....... this would mean that not only would it not require a licenced legal version of Windows, as Knoppix is free, but it boots and runs from CD (to a full KDE desktop).

So basically, you could build the new machines and they wouldn't actually need a copy of Windows, or even a hard-drive. The F@H executable (and WUs) would just be held on the auto-created Ram-drive.

I'm going to try it later and see if there are any flaws, but currently it seems like a way to save money on the ICx machines....

NS
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Comments

  • edcentricedcentric near Milwaukee, Wisconsin Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    Keep us posted on this.
    I would be willing to learn some new tricks if this works.
    It could help me add a machine or two on the cheap.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited September 2003
    I have a CD with it on it with FAH and SAH as well but I havent been able to try it yet. Once I did and I could figure it out I was going to write a lil tutorial for the team.

    You still need a CD ROM drive tho and some machines are running Linux.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    But it also means the ICx machines would potentiall need additional RAM amounts.

    <font size=-7>Legal copies of windows aren't common here.</font>

    And Linux folds slower than Windows. If our goal is to produce for the team, and for the community, wouldn't it make sence to use the fastest OS?
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited September 2003
    128mb is all that is needed for this, and I dont know that Linux is a slower folder any more. Writing the data would be a lot quicker since its RAM and not a hard disk.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    mmonnin said
    I have a CD with it on it with FAH and SAH as well but I havent been able to try it yet. Once I did and I could figure it out I was going to write a lil tutorial for the team.

    You still need a CD ROM drive tho and some machines are running Linux.

    You only need the CD-ROM drive for the Inital boot then you can remove it (unmount the drive in Linux and it is safe to remove it) Though I am not sure if Knoppix needs to load from the CD after boot.

    Thrax: Any actual proof that Linux folds slower than Windows? If it's true then the F@H team have some optimising to do :(

    You also don't need lots of RAM

    NS
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited September 2003
    NS where did you find it. I was browsing other teams sites and found this one.

    http://folding.octeams.com/

    It has a link to a 686mb ISO with Linux and FAH on it.
  • t1rhinot1rhino Toronto
    edited September 2003
    The only problem I can see, is what happens if the computer gets shut down?
    Won't it lose the whole WU b/c RAM is volatile and will not store data without data?
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    t1rhino said
    The only problem I can see, is what happens if the computer gets shut down?
    Won't it lose the whole WU b/c RAM is volatile and will not store data without data?

    You will lose everything. The idea is that the machine isn't closed down at all.

    mmonnoninnininii (sorry, I have no idea how many ms and ns): I't just occured to me as I had used Knoppix before and was trying to figure out if I had anything to contribute to the ICx machines. It didn't occur to me that others may have already thought about it.

    I got the ISO ages ago from linuxiso.org.

    NS
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited September 2003
    You can always put the machine on a cheap UPS to keep from losing the WU due to a short power outage.
  • QCHQCH Ancient Guru Chicago Area - USA Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    So... If a SMx rig is on power backup and you run this Knoppix, the system should be ok for FAH if there is a power loss, But what does happen if the machine looses power and dies? The WU would be lost, correct?
  • a2jfreaka2jfreak Houston, TX Member
    edited September 2003
    The WU would be lost, unless you saved it to a network drive or something. The No HD approach is a pretty good idea to save a few bucks, and as long as the ICx/SMx machine has a NIC (which most mobos nowadays include so a PCI card wouldn't even need to be purchased in most cases) then it could save the WU data onto a drive on the network in case of power outages. I'm not sure how you would tell F@H where to save the data, but I'm sure there's a way.

    Also, rather than using knoppix, couldn't you just boot from the NIC itself? I've never done this so I don't know how it's done, but I'm sure it could be made to work. I'm pretty sure most people that host an ICx/SMx have another computer setup to act as the server.
  • WuGgaRoOWuGgaRoO Not in the shower Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    i kinda like the idea...but its not as stable as that with a harddrive...i think we should stick to the small harddrivews with appx 1 gig...that cost nothing more than 5 bux each and use linux...it just m ore stable
  • a2jfreaka2jfreak Houston, TX Member
    edited September 2003
    If you know where to get HDs for $5 please let me know.
  • CammanCamman NEW! England Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    muddocktor said
    You can always put the machine on a cheap UPS to keep from losing the WU due to a short power outage.

    Seems to be like it would be cheaper just to keep going with small harddrives. A friend of mine bought a "cheaper" UPS for me and it was $40 w/ his discount! originally $60, and $50-$60 is the cheapest I've seen for UPS'
  • QCHQCH Ancient Guru Chicago Area - USA Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    OK, my Linux Admin states that a little tweaking to make Knoppix cashe the WU info on a small HD or a network drive would be fairly straight forward. For me, I could run a few machines all with the Knoppix on it and all of them saving dat on my server. If one crashes or can't send a WU in, I can keep track of it instead of running to each machine. I will look into it... but don't wait on me if any of you want to try too. My hope is that we can tweak knoppix to a point that every SMx rig gets a CD with everything they need.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    Why the hell do you need a UPS? Dont be so stupid. Power outage, loss of 1 WU, wow, the end of the world.

    You dont need a UPS, that idea is just stupid.

    You cant buy small drives for $5.

    And the network drive idea seems to be best so far, as you could execute and run F@H FROM the network drive, so you wouldnt have to try and tell F@H where to save the WUs as it defaults to the EXEs folder.

    NS
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited September 2003
    I went to computerfest the past few times and bought 2 HDDs each time for $5 each. I think 3 are in SMx machines.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    What size?

    Wish you could get them that cheap over here. Due to the lack of them, they cost as much as 20 and 30GB drives :(

    NS
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited September 2003
    Like 1.6GB or so. Got some vid cards as well for the same price.

    One other thing about the network boot, the monster machines with nodes. The ones that use the same motherboard, CPU and such and consist of like 8 nodes all running from the same HDDl they have to use a network boot. How else could they run?
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited September 2003
    If you guys want to run a multi-node setup using 1 hard drive to cache the WU's and results on, overclockers.com had a couple of their team mates that put together the "Yattamonster", which does just that. It would considerably cut deployment time down by just using what they developed to get your multi-node machine up and folding. If you are intersted in this, just go to their folding forum and search (or ask) and I'm sure that they would be glad to give some links out on where to get their "Yattamonster" rigup software or ISO.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    mmonnin said
    One other thing about the network boot, the monster machines with nodes. The ones that use the same motherboard, CPU and such and consist of like 8 nodes all running from the same HDDl they have to use a network boot. How else could they run?

    I was refering to just running F@H from a network drive, not booting from a network drive, that defeats the idea of Knoppix.

    NS
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited September 2003
    I mean that they saved data across the network w/o using a HDD.

    Yes a Yattamonster. Thats what I was referring to.
  • seversphereseversphere
    edited September 2003
    stability is top priority for a team rig. Stability entails least risk of losing a wu. This idea is good for personal farms but not for every team rig. If the host has the skills then they can do it and I would encourage them to do it so others could learn how. The host would have to purchase a UPS unless one could be donated.

    Do it then come back and show us what is all involved. It is a big deal if a wu gets lost on a ram drive since you lose that time spent on the wu and the time til you notice something is wrong and reboot. With data on a hdd you only lose the time from power outage til you notice and reboot. Yes a wu can be lost with a hdd but it happens less (usually from OC or just a bad wu) and with ram drive you will lose the wu everytime.

    I'm not saying it's bad idea just not right for everyone (yet??). Again please try it out first and work out any bugs.

    Give these a read.
    http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=637014

    http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=625404
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    My point is, if the machine loses the WU due to a restart it will either have been because of a fluke power outage which would happen very, very rarely, or the machine is defective, in which case it would need to be fixed anyway, so what I am saying is a UPS is pointless considering the amount of power outages (we get like, what, 1 every few years?).

    NS
  • seversphereseversphere
    edited September 2003
    NightShade737 said
    so what I am saying is a UPS is pointless considering the amount of power outages (we get like, what, 1 every few years?).

    NS

    :banghead: not everybody has steady power. You don't need a UPS but that doesn't mean nobody needs a UPS.
  • CammanCamman NEW! England Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    Heres a how to I found on that Yattamonster thing, I'm reading it now

    http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=107633&highlight=Yattamonster
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    seversphere said
    NightShade737 said
    so what I am saying is a UPS is pointless considering the amount of power outages (we get like, what, 1 every few years?).

    NS

    :banghead: not everybody has steady power. You don't need a UPS but that doesn't mean nobody needs a UPS.

    Ok then, only people who already have UPS's or have steady power should undertake this method of ICx machine building, otherwise it is entirely pointless......

    NS
  • seversphereseversphere
    edited September 2003
    it's not pointless to have a UPS since you can hook up more than one machine to them. It is basically pointless if it would be just for the one hosted machine. That also means it's a bit risky just to try and save on one HDD and one OS.
  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian
    edited September 2003
    Incase anyone forgot, me and Garg can get old hard drives ranging from 800MB - 1.8 GB for $5 on Tuesday mornings from the University's surplus department. We got a bunch of them a while back and have used them on a few of our personal rigs and I think a couple team ones... I think Garg donated a couple.
  • TheSmJTheSmJ
    edited September 2003
    I've used Knoppix before, it's ok but you need a CD-ROM drive (something SMX machines have nver had in the past) and for me, hard drives are much easier to come by.
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