Antec PSU Overloaded?
Hopefully, the PSU gods of Short-Media can help me with this one.
I've got a ton of devices hooked up to my poor Antec 430W TruePower PSU (listing below). I believe I've actually hit the limit of the PSU, as it has begun to undervolt on all 3 bus lines (3.3+, 5+ & 12+) and on the core voltages it is sending to the CPU.
Intel Pentium 4 2400C @ 2880 @ 1.65V (backed off the OC a bit)
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe Mobo
ThermalRight SLK-900U & 92mm Vantec ThermalFlow Fan
2x256 MB Corsair XMS3700 running 1:1 with FSB (480) @ 2.95V
Sapphire Atlantis 9800 Non-Pro modded to 9800 Pro & O/C'd to 412/730 (XT Speeds).
Promise Ultra133TX2 IDE Controller Card
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum
2x 36.7 GB Western Digital Raptor Drives (10000 RPM, SATA-150) in RAID-0 Configuration
2x 120.0 GB Western Digital Caviar SE Drives (7200 RPM, IDE) in RAID-0 Configuration
1 x 250 GB Western Digital Caviar SE Drive (7200 RPM, IDE)
1 x 100 GB Western Digital Caviar Drive (7200 RPM, IDE)
Lite-On 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-On 48x12x48 CD-ReWriter
Floppy Drive
5 x 80mm Antec Case Fans
92mm Vantec Tornado (draws 1 AMP) for cooling the 9800.
USB Devices:
MS Natural Keyboard Pro
Logitech MX700 Wireless Mouse
HP DeskJet 920C Printer
Palm M505 Docking Station
Compaq Ipaq H3950 Docking Station
MS SideWinder Joystick
I've checked the voltage busses through MotherBoard Monitor, the BIOS and through a voltmetre, which shows that the rails are all undervolting:
The 3.3V+ bus hits as low as 3.02V and never goes above 3.09V.
The 5.0V+ bus hits as low as 4.83V and never goes above 4.88V
The 12.0V+ bus hits as low as 11.82V and never goes above 11.95V.
The CPU voltages are even worse: Through the BIOS, I've had to up the VCORE1 voltage to 1.65V from the default 1.5V normal to keep the CPU running at the overclocked state it is in. After disconnecting some devices, I can run the same overclock @ 1.5V (stock voltage). Even though 1.65V is selected in the BIOS, the real-time voltage readings through the BIOS and through a voltmetre when running 2 instances of F@H has the VCORE1 drop to 1.47V! Yes, the CPU's a great O/Cer, but the voltage fluctuations are wild on the PSU. Intel users NEVER want to worry about running 1.7V through the CPU on air-cooling, as Sudden NorthWood Death Syndrome (SNDS) can occur, frying your lovely CPU and I'm worried that the PSU will fluctuate over and above 1.7V.
Time for a new 550W PSU, or is this normal for the Antec? There is no system instability, but the heat from the PSU is incredibly warm, very much more than normal. It's about as hot as a hair dryer opreating on its highest setting (scorching).
Attached is a listing of the specs of the Antec 430W TruePower, which will fluctuate +/-5%.
I've got a ton of devices hooked up to my poor Antec 430W TruePower PSU (listing below). I believe I've actually hit the limit of the PSU, as it has begun to undervolt on all 3 bus lines (3.3+, 5+ & 12+) and on the core voltages it is sending to the CPU.
Intel Pentium 4 2400C @ 2880 @ 1.65V (backed off the OC a bit)
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe Mobo
ThermalRight SLK-900U & 92mm Vantec ThermalFlow Fan
2x256 MB Corsair XMS3700 running 1:1 with FSB (480) @ 2.95V
Sapphire Atlantis 9800 Non-Pro modded to 9800 Pro & O/C'd to 412/730 (XT Speeds).
Promise Ultra133TX2 IDE Controller Card
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum
2x 36.7 GB Western Digital Raptor Drives (10000 RPM, SATA-150) in RAID-0 Configuration
2x 120.0 GB Western Digital Caviar SE Drives (7200 RPM, IDE) in RAID-0 Configuration
1 x 250 GB Western Digital Caviar SE Drive (7200 RPM, IDE)
1 x 100 GB Western Digital Caviar Drive (7200 RPM, IDE)
Lite-On 16x DVD-ROM
Lite-On 48x12x48 CD-ReWriter
Floppy Drive
5 x 80mm Antec Case Fans
92mm Vantec Tornado (draws 1 AMP) for cooling the 9800.
USB Devices:
MS Natural Keyboard Pro
Logitech MX700 Wireless Mouse
HP DeskJet 920C Printer
Palm M505 Docking Station
Compaq Ipaq H3950 Docking Station
MS SideWinder Joystick
I've checked the voltage busses through MotherBoard Monitor, the BIOS and through a voltmetre, which shows that the rails are all undervolting:
The 3.3V+ bus hits as low as 3.02V and never goes above 3.09V.
The 5.0V+ bus hits as low as 4.83V and never goes above 4.88V
The 12.0V+ bus hits as low as 11.82V and never goes above 11.95V.
The CPU voltages are even worse: Through the BIOS, I've had to up the VCORE1 voltage to 1.65V from the default 1.5V normal to keep the CPU running at the overclocked state it is in. After disconnecting some devices, I can run the same overclock @ 1.5V (stock voltage). Even though 1.65V is selected in the BIOS, the real-time voltage readings through the BIOS and through a voltmetre when running 2 instances of F@H has the VCORE1 drop to 1.47V! Yes, the CPU's a great O/Cer, but the voltage fluctuations are wild on the PSU. Intel users NEVER want to worry about running 1.7V through the CPU on air-cooling, as Sudden NorthWood Death Syndrome (SNDS) can occur, frying your lovely CPU and I'm worried that the PSU will fluctuate over and above 1.7V.
Time for a new 550W PSU, or is this normal for the Antec? There is no system instability, but the heat from the PSU is incredibly warm, very much more than normal. It's about as hot as a hair dryer opreating on its highest setting (scorching).
Attached is a listing of the specs of the Antec 430W TruePower, which will fluctuate +/-5%.
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Comments
Are you into modding the psu? I have a few tweaks up into my sleave that will help all those lines a lot if you need.
That psu actually have potentiometers inside for the 12 and the fiver. You will find 2 pots in there, one is for the overvolting protection, the other is for the 12 and fiver combined. REDUCING the resistance will raise both the lines but dang, be careful.
As for the 3.3V line, you have to sodler a fixed resistor on the orange cable (At least i think it was the orange, but i can check) and to ground to raise the 3.3. Raising the 3.3 will help overclocking the fsb a lot as well
Let me know and i´ll try to hook you up.
With that many devices, I would personally be VERY inclined to add a 2nd PSU rather than just upgrading. Space may be at a premium but even with a 550 watter you may find problems, that is a hella big number of devices for any single PSU imho
**EDIT** Mack's suggestion re: modding may very well work but remember, the components in that PSU are only what is necessary for the rated output. It's already running hot you say, expect it to get worse and have a higher risk of going **POP** if you up the output. No slag intended at Mack and I do not regard mine as an expert opinion on things electric.
Remove both of the Antec fans; replace them with a Sunon KD1209PTB2 92mm fan, and a Sunon KD1208PTBX-6A 80mm fan. Skip the thermal control circuit, and hook both up to the +12v line (I'd just run the molex connectors out of the PS and hook them up to one of the other connectors)
That should cool it down a good deal (although it'll be noisy), and that should bring the voltages back up. If it's getting that hot, it's too hot, and it's not good for it. I'd try that first, then consider a new PS.
However, my dually system is on an Antec 550w TrueControl, and has the following hardware in it:
2x 2500+
1GB DDR
Radeon 8500
HighPoint RR1540
4 160GB 7200RPM/8MB Maxtor HDDs
CD-RW
DVD
FDD
Zip
6 80mm, 2 120mm case fans, 1 60mm video card fan, 2 80mm cpu fans
And it runs fine (and the PS runs cool too, since I've got it set to run @ maximum fan speed all the time)
If swapping the fans out doesn't help, then consider a new PS. Either an Antec TrueControl 550 or a PC Power & Cooling 510w
Just let the fans be by themselves, especially if the box is normally on clsoe to 24\7. The nice thing about sense leads on fans, if you WANT the sensing for a heat alarm or motherboard monitor software, is that many mobos WILL allow you to just run the sense wires to the FAN sockets-- the one exception, the CPU heatsink fan stays on main (CPUFAN) mobo connect, as many boards will not let you boot if that is not hooked in unless you massively kludge things. Some folks have been known to hook most fans other than the CPUFAN and maybe the first chassis fan (simply so the mobo is happier and feeds the monitor software right) onto a dedicated 2-3 AMP PSU just for fans. In your case, does the video card safety if you hook the fan power to another PSU for power and leave the sense wire connected to the fan harness, or do you have only the two power leads (one hot, one return) going from fan to card??? If the latter, you can take a 1 AMP load off of your main PSU right there by connecting power leads for your video card cooling fan to a fan-dedicated PSU.
John.
Mackanz: Thanks for the tips, but I don't think screwing with the pots in the PSU is such a wise idea for my situation. Yes, it could save money by not having to purchase a new PSU, but I would void my warranty and possibly overvolt the lines, which could damage all the components in the system. If you wouldn't mind sending the information regarding how to make the changes inside, I may consider it in the future
Keto: Yep, the PSU is running hotter than hell. I think overvolting it would increase the heat and the likelihood of popping the PSU, which I would like to avoid. What about a PC Power and Cooling PSU rated for 600W or above? Price really is of no concern (hell, I buy Intel), but a single-PSU solution would be ideal for this. Anyone have experience with the PC Power & Cooling PSU's?
Geeky1: I took your advice and for the first few minutes of system operation (after being shut down for 3 hours), I removed all of the case fans, the CPU cooler fan & the Vantec Tornado from operation. I fired up the system, still overclocked with only the SLK900U cooling it (no active cooling) to see what the voltages looked like. Booted into Windows, fired up F@H (yes I know...fanlesss..) and watched the busses undervolt once again, almost just as bad as before. Somehow, I think just taking the fans off of the Antec 430W PSU won't cure this.
Ageek: The system is on 24/7 and is always folding. In the BIOS on the Asus P4C800-E, you can disable the CPU fan RPM detector, allowing you to hook up a fan without the BIOS requiring the ability to detect fan RPM's. As for the video card, it still has the stock heatsink & fan on it. I suspend a 92mm Vantec Tornado from the left-hand side-panel to direct outside air directly onto the video card. As in my reply to Geeky1, taking the fans directly off the PSU and running the system fanless didn't help the voltage situation that much (still not back in the "safe zone" of bus voltage fluctuation). The 12V bus did bounce back slightly, but there was minimal change in the 5V & 3.3V busses.
Here's the beast in all her glory (the 6th hard disk resides in the bottom 5.25" bay, just sitting there underneath the Audigy 2 Platinum "Drive").
WTF do they call that wiring job.... oh yeah. SPAGHETTI
I'd try upgrading the PS cooling, as I said... If that doesn't work, get a new PS. BUT, I've run my dually (2x2500s, MSI K7D, R9700 Pro @ the time, 4 160gb 7200rpm drives, etc.) off a 400w Antec Pre-TruePower PS (PP403-X) that had a TtSmartFan2 in it... I ran the fan @ full speed, the coming out of the PS was room temperature, and the system was totally stable. On a 400w PS.
//Edit
Also, you may want to consider a bigger case. That's a hell of a lot of stuff to cram into one of those antec "mini" full towers... (it's mini compared to what I usually use anyhow
How much is really enough? I was hoping the 430W would do my rig for a long time, but I'm slowly findout that simply is no longer the case anymore.
www.pcpowercooling.com
If you've got the $$, you can get a 650w PS from them, but it's not quite standard ATX form factor, so you WILL need a bigger case if you get it.
After comparing output specifications on the Antec 550 & PCP&C 510W Deluxe, they provide approximately the same amperage on some rails.
Which rail am I looking for the most power on to support my current hardware (possibly one more IDE device... DVD Burner)? Which rail(s) need the most juice?
PC Power & Cooling 510 W Deluxe
+5V @ 40A
+12V @ 34A, 38A peak
-5V @ 0.3A
-12V @ 2A
+3.3V @ 30A
+5VSB @ 3A
Antec TruePower 550W
+5V @ 40A
+12V @ 24A
-5V @ 0.5A
-12V @ 1A
+3.3V @ 32A
+5VSB @ 2A
Keep in mind that PC Power & Cooling can (and will) add capacity to any/all rails if you want them too... ask them about it.
Also keep in mind that a TrueControl550 powers my dually system. If it can handle that, it can probably handle your system. I think.
MTGoat: You mean splice the green wires from the 2nd PSU ATX connector onto the Antec ATX connector?
splice green wire from PSU2 to green wire on PSU1 and both PSU's will will start via power button.
fc
Simguy,
The only voltageline you have to worry about is for all your devices such as printer, joystick etc that uses 3.3V. The rest of your lines is well withing specs even if they are a tad lower than original which is normal. Just for kicks, if you unplugged all the extra devices except for keyboard and mouse, does the 3.3 line raise to better numbers? Is it possible to use the keyboard and mouse from the legacy ports instead? Legacy draws LESS power than usb even if they use the same line which is a well known fact. Can you just try? If it´s NOT raising, your psu is going to die soon.
FC thank you!
I have never tried this before. Is there any problems with it at all? Safety? Did you see better results?
Ummm I've seen 2nd psu started with first but wouldn't you need a ground along with the splicing of the greens?
www.buyxg.com
its like 20 bux and it should be able to support your harddrives if not..then just use it for your fans and optical drives
not that i'm aware of...just dont go splicing 2 PSU's together running into the mobo...bad. I ran the HD's/fans/CDROM's on PSU2 and the mobo with PSU1.
as far as a ground...im not very good with electronics, but i beleive an ATX PSU is always getting juice (soft switch)anyways and when u hit the power button it just send a signal through the green wire to start the PSU. the gound is the power cord???
I'm sure someone knows more.
if u dont wanna do any splicing just get a AT PSU and mod the case for the power button.
np mtgoat
fc
Voltages are all back to within normal operating range, although my case is pissed off that it has a PSU-tumor attached to it with duct tape.
Thanks a bunch!
Happy it worked and all is well again.