Future for Vista looks bleak, but where

LincLinc OwnerDetroit Icrontian
edited June 2006 in Science & Tech
With Microsoft taking a beating because of Vista's problems and delays, XYZ thinks it is time for desktop Linux to step up and experience some considerable growth.
Right now, with Vista and Microsoft garnering very low approval ratings, desktop Linux providers need to be more aggressive about their marketing and get their message to concerned consumers. This should not be thought of as kicking Microsoft when it's down, but the fact remains that a lot of people, even dedicated MS fans, are disappointed with what they know about Vista and what they have been hearing about the company in general. This means it is an ideal time to present people with a viable option.
Source: XYZ Computing

Comments

  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Considering Linux being open source and developed by people, for people, the comment "desktop Linux providers need to be more aggressive about their marketing and get their message to concerned consumers" seems a bit silly. Anyone computer literate enough to use it knows what it is already and those that don't would have to be reached through TV, Radio and such... which, as you can tell isn't going to happen. This isn't a big multinational corporation (although Red Hat and such are getting larger) it's Joe Public and his mate coding "interesting stuff".
  • airbornflghtairbornflght Houston, TX Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Yes, but if the linux community would band together and create one distro that is built to excel in the "less than computer literate" market, than linux could go places. And if they did fundraising to promote that OS and show how easy it is to use and make it easy to install then linux could really go mainstream. Now a grassroots group of people wouldnt work, the whole linux community would have to take an already user friendly distro, such has kubunto, clean it up, add in a few things to come already installed, such as openoffice. FF&TB. And also the install process should be cleaned up, such as have an option for "EasyInstall" so that you dont have to sort through the packages, it just goes ahead and makes a very general, but very complete install of the OS.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Yes, but if the linux community would band together and create one distro that is built to excel in the "less than computer literate" market, than linux could go places

    That wont happen though. The whole reason there are lots of distros is because they are all VERY different to suit different peoples tastes. Most of what you recommend would also... "lameify" Linux, removing the "hardcore" part of it, which is what most the people that use it like it for.
  • airbornflghtairbornflght Houston, TX Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    This isnt about makign linux "hardcore" I could care less what these people say. It matters what the majority wants. If they would just make a distro that anyone could pickup and use, then that would happen, then they could explore the better stuff. But if linux is to be kept around, and believe me, in 10 years, if lnux is not mainstream and does not have enough of a userbase, I fear that use of it will be illegal.
  • CammanCamman NEW! England Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Enverex wrote:
    That wont happen though. The whole reason there are lots of distros is because they are all VERY different to suit different peoples tastes. Most of what you recommend would also... "lameify" Linux, removing the "hardcore" part of it, which is what most the people that use it like it for.

    So maybe that means Linux isn't for the average consumer desktop?
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    So maybe that means Linux isn't for the average consumer desktop?
    Just average? I certainly wouldn't consider myself an OS whiz, but I'm not about to "learn" a new OS and go fishing for device drivers. If and when there is a Linux distribution that is as easy to install as WinXP, I'll line up and get it. And yes, I know there are distros that are worlds better than what was available a few years ago. I just don't want to take the time for a new hobby - I don't have that time.

    Trust me, when Linux attains the ease of setup and use, and the flexibility of Windows, word will spread like wildfire. Look at AMD, most of their success in the last three years has been through word of mouth, the reputation for quality and performance. The marketing has been minimalist and generally inept.

    I respect all you desktop Linux pioneers. I really do. Some day the fruits of your labors will be enjoyed by millions of people like me.



    Hmm, if there ever is a serious challenge to Windows from desktop Linux, you'll probably see Microsoft Linux distribution.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    This isnt about makign linux "hardcore" I could care less what these people say.

    You've just read the opposite of what I said. I said it already WAS hardcore and that lots of people use it for that reason. "Noobifying" it would lose those users, and most of those users ARE the developers.
    But if linux is to be kept around, and believe me, in 10 years, if lnux is not mainstream and does not have enough of a userbase, I fear that use of it will be illegal.

    Lol... sorry, nothing more to say to that.
    Camman wrote:
    So maybe that means Linux isn't for the average consumer desktop?

    Most distro's aren't, but some are trying.
    Leonardo wrote:
    Just average? I certainly wouldn't consider myself an OS whiz, but I'm not about to "learn" a new OS and go fishing for device drivers. If and when there is a Linux distribution that is as easy to install as WinXP, I'll line up and get it. And yes, I know there are distros that are worlds better than what was available a few years ago. I just don't want to take the time for a new hobby - I don't have that time.

    Trust me, when Linux attains the ease of setup and use, and the flexibility of Windows, word will spread like wildfire. Look at AMD, most of their success in the last three years has been through word of mouth, the reputation for quality and performance. The marketing has been minimalist and generally inept.

    I respect all you desktop Linux pioneers. I really do. Some day the fruits of your labors will be enjoyed by millions of people like me.

    Same as what I said above, some distros are trying and making it easier, but are still... refining their methods.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Same as what I said above, some distros are trying and making it easier, but are still... refining their methods.
    Eventually there will be a large enough developer base, necessary critical mass so that the hardware companies will develop Linux drivers simultaneously with the Windows drivers and that updates will be available in a timely fashion. Maybe it will be sooner than we think.
  • airbornflghtairbornflght Houston, TX Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Enverex wrote:
    You've just read the opposite of what I said. I said it already WAS hardcore and that lots of people use it for that reason. "Noobifying" it would lose those users, and most of those users ARE the developers.

    No, sorry, typed to fast, meant to say keeping it hardcore. Because really, there are a lot of distros, out, why not make 1 that is noobified in order to gain a bigger userbase. The userbase of linux can not be elitist if they wish to gain a wider userbase.

    And about the illegal part. at least in america it is a very real posibilty if they start this trusted platform bs. It would be very possible, through certain legislation for an program that isnt "trusted" or signed by certain orginazations to be illegal to run/develop/compile. most likely those people in charge of signing, would charge such an ammount that linux and other open source developers coudnt afford, or the signers just wouldnt sign. That could very well mean the end of open source. Not to mention that the trusted platform would introduce certain code that would have to be included, which would be illegal to share, thus making it illegal to share the source, killing open source another way.:sad2:
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Leonardo wrote:
    Eventually there will be a large enough developer base, necessary critical mass so that the hardware companies will develop Linux drivers simultaneously with the Windows drivers and that updates will be available in a timely fashion. Maybe it will be sooner than we think.

    Well the advantage is that drivers are generic, so regardless weather you're using a distro that looks and feels like Windows or weather you're using one of the hardcore distros, they all use the same drivers.
    No, sorry, typed to fast, meant to say keeping it hardcore. Because really, there are a lot of distros, out, why not make 1 that is noobified in order to gain a bigger userbase.

    There are. Ubuntu is trying and there are any of the distros with "Win" in the name (but there's got to be give, Linux isn't for retards).
    The userbase of linux can not be elitist if they wish to gain a wider userbase

    The userbase of Linux couldn't really give a rats about a wider userbase for the most part as it normally means "dumbing down" everything (regardless of how simple a distro is made). The userbase themselves also don't really have much of an influence of what everything is going to be like anyway.
    And about the illegal part. at least in america it is a very real posibilty if they start this trusted platform bs. It would be very possible, through certain legislation for an program that isnt "trusted" or signed by certain orginazations to be illegal to run/develop/compile. most likely those people in charge of signing, would charge such an ammount that linux and other open source developers coudnt afford, or the signers just wouldnt sign. That could very well mean the end of open source. Not to mention that the trusted platform would introduce certain code that would have to be included, which would be illegal to share, thus making it illegal to share the source, killing open source another way.:sad2:

    Luckily the rest of the world doesn't keep introducing such rediculous rules as the US.
  • deicistdeicist Manchester, UK
    edited June 2006
    And about the illegal part. at least in america it is a very real posibilty if they start this trusted platform bs. It would be very possible, through certain legislation for an program that isnt "trusted" or signed by certain orginazations to be illegal to run/develop/compile. most likely those people in charge of signing, would charge such an ammount that linux and other open source developers coudnt afford, or the signers just wouldnt sign. That could very well mean the end of open source. Not to mention that the trusted platform would introduce certain code that would have to be included, which would be illegal to share, thus making it illegal to share the source, killing open source another way.:sad2:

    I don't think the Trusted Platform bs works in the way you think it does. There's nothing at all to stop Linux running on a system with a Trusted Platform Module (TPM) in fact the most popular TPMs are supported by current Linux Kernels. There's an interesting article about the issue here:

    linky

    You should also read the comments, in particular the one Posted Aug 17, 2005 18:33 UTC (Wed) by guest dmag.

    Basically there's nothing in the Trusted Platform that would stop you installing linux on it, even a version of linux that didn't support the TPM. The only thing the TPM does is provide cryptographic and other security services to the system. If your system (OS) doesn't use them than the module just sits idle.
  • jradminjradmin North Kackalaki
    edited June 2006
    After reading all the posts and replys on Linux, as well as my own experience with it, I can pretty much guarentee that it won't be hitting end user systems mainstream for a long time if ever.

    In the computer business, the end user wants simplicity and ease of use. 75-80% of end users don't want to have to use the manpages to learn how to do a simple file copy or move. Until Linux can dumb it down for the complete audience, get some track record time in the noobtastic mode, and prove to manufacturers that the large majority of customers would prefer it over Windows, your not going to see it mass produced if produced at all in Dell, HP, or Gateway machines. I'm willing to bet that 9 out of 10 average people have never even heard of or know what Linux is.

    Anyhow, thats my my standpoint as a small manufacturer. I'm in no way busting on the Linux OS at all. I'm familiar enough with Fedora to make my way around the OS, and I do enjoy working with Linux.
  • deicistdeicist Manchester, UK
    edited June 2006
    I reckon OS-X (or Apple's next OS) will be more of a threat to Vista than Linux is. Apple have already shown they're willing to seperate their hardware from their software with boot camp, the obvious next step is to sell a version of OS-X which runs on standard PCs as a stand alone operating system. Although my guess is they'll wait until a 3rd party (hacking group) finds an easy way to do it before they announce their version. At the moment Apple can use OSX to drive sales of it's Hardware, when people find a way to put OSX on standard PC hardware easily the last reason to keep OSX off the shelves as a standalone OS is gone.
  • airbornflghtairbornflght Houston, TX Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    deicist wrote:
    I reckon OS-X (or Apple's next OS) will be more of a threat to Vista than Linux is. Apple have already shown they're willing to seperate their hardware from their software with boot camp, the obvious next step is to sell a version of OS-X which runs on standard PCs as a stand alone operating system. Although my guess is they'll wait until a 3rd party (hacking group) finds an easy way to do it before they announce their version. At the moment Apple can use OSX to drive sales of it's Hardware, when people find a way to put OSX on standard PC hardware easily the last reason to keep OSX off the shelves as a standalone OS is gone.


    If that happened, Windows XP would be gone so fast that your head would spin. No doubt. I'm waiting for a tangible mainstream replacement for xp. I'm surprised they havent found a way to run OSX on a pc yet anyway. I'm no coder, but I know that anything is possible with computers. Apple must have gone to some good lengths to prevent it.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Airbornflight: I highly doubt that considering the tiny amount of software available for Macs in comparison to Windows as well as games which I'm sure is a big selling point aswell.
  • profdlpprofdlp The Holy City Of Westlake, Ohio
    edited June 2006
    deicist wrote:
    I don't think the Trusted Platform bs works in the way you think it does...
    Agreed.

    Let's keep in mind that the most publicized incident of a computer company being sued by the USDOJ was the Microsoft anti-trust case.
  • airbornflghtairbornflght Houston, TX Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    I think there is still hope for OSX, a lot of apps support it. I think it is feasible, it isnt going to be all at once, but I think that it could happen gradually. kind of like the intel/amd issue, amd didnt gain all of the market share at once, it just kind of snuck away from intel.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Until Linux can dumb it down for the complete audience
    . I think a better term would be ease of use. I understand what you mean though. I remember using Word Perfect 1.X. We did EVERYTHING via command line interface. If a word processor with a simple windowed interface and drop down menus was for the retards, then count me as a retard that is so happy that command line BS disappeared for office suites.

    When I start my car in the morning, I don't want to use a hand crank, and I don't want to have to reset the distributer points once a week, even if the car were free and less vulnerable to malware and less liable for bugs.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Leonardo wrote:
    When I start my car in the morning, I don't want to use a hand crank, and I don't want to have to reset the distributer points once a week, even if the car were free and less vulnerable to malware and less liable for bugs.

    Normally lots of stuff is command line in Linux as once you're used to it it is considerably faster and more powerful to use, although some things are command line that don't really need to be. There's also the fact that you can then use the program on a machine with no X server installed.
  • deicistdeicist Manchester, UK
    edited June 2006
    Enverex wrote:
    Normally lots of stuff is command line in Linux as once you're used to it it is considerably faster and more powerful to use, although some things are command line that don't really need to be. There's also the fact that you can then use the program on a machine with no X server installed.

    That's the problem with Linux though, it's very powerful, very fast and secure but some things still need to be done through the command line. I work in tech support and I can tell you the majority of users literally fear the command line. They'd rather eat bees than do something via the command line. And even when there's a GUI alternative to the command line, you can tell that GUI has been designed with the knowledge that the command line is there as an alternative. That's the mindset that needs to be changed if Linux is to succeed. Someone should make a distro with no terminal at all, no access to any kind of command line and see if they can make it work.
  • airbornflghtairbornflght Houston, TX Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Linux with no console??? what? how can this be?
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    Yeah, I can't really see that ever happening, unless the console is masked behind millions of GUIs instead and then some/lots of things are still going to be inaccessable.
  • drasnordrasnor Starship Operator Hawthorne, CA Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    The userbase of Linux couldn't really give a rats about a wider userbase for the most part as it normally means "dumbing down" everything (regardless of how simple a distro is made). The userbase themselves also don't really have much of an influence of what everything is going to be like anyway.
    I really couldn't disagree with you more. I have yet to meet a Linux user that doesn't fiercely advocate the platform. With the exception of a few special-purpose distros, all are designed with the user in mind and user-friendliness being one of the main goals. No one wants an OS that is excruciating to use (see: pico and nano usage compared to vi and emacs.) I see "dumbing down" as removing functionality which will never happen on any Linux software unless the functionality is obsolete or superseded. What will happen is that software packages will ship with fairly universal defaults instead of unconfigured and that simple GUI interfaces will emerge for commonly-used functions and settings. Also, users have a great deal of effect on the direction of GNU software, even greater than that Windows users have. Whereas a Windows user is required to put their money where their mouth is and actual contact with developers is prohibited, many a time I've received help directly from the authors of GNU software. I've witnessed many cases of features being suggested that were later implemented. Users can report bugs that will be fixed in a timely fashion.

    I went to Linux as my primary OS mainly for three reasons:
    1) I don't have a very strong desire to pay money for functionality that is provided legally for free elsewhere. This is especially true in light of my limited cashflow. There is a lot of really neat software available for Linux, many of which are very user-friendly and designed for X. With the exception of gaming, there is not a single feature Windows can offer me that can't be had here.
    2) TCPA scares me. Really. Yes, I am aware that some crypto Linux kernels and distros support the TPM but only in a benign sense (very secure SSL certificate storage and public/private key generation among others) akin to the way other hardware crypto devices are supported. None of the more controversial features like remote attestation and DRM are implemented. As such, I retain control of my computer whereas Microsoft wants to take it away.
    3) Linux runs on all the hardware I own which is quite varied and runs the full gamut from 68k Macintoshes to dual Opteron PCs. It is tremendously versatile and can be customized for any use. Take for example three machines I have running Gentoo Linux right now: the first is a dual Athlon MP desktop PC with hardware-accelerated ATI graphics that I'm using to post this; the second is a console-only dual Pentium 3 rackmount server with SCSI hard drives and multiple ethernet interfaces providing network routing and diskless booting for other machines; and the third boots disklessly from the second and runs a stripped down installation for Folding.
    Yes, but if the linux community would band together and create one distro that is built to excel in the "less than computer literate" market, than linux could go places.
    A common misconception about Linux is trying to measure the "Linux OS" by the same benchmarks or milestones used to measure Windows. Linux is NOT an OS in the same sense as Windows is. Technically, Linux refers only to the GNU/Linux kernel which forms the foundation for many operating systems otherwise known as Linux distributions. A distribution packages the Linux kernel along with the basic system utilities and other software as the distro authors see fit. However, a distribution typically offers very little "original" software and is mostly a collection of software written by developers with no relation to the distro authors. As a result, distro authors have little to no control over the development progress, policies, or philosophies of the package authors leading to great difficulty in package integration and interopterability. These problems are derived from the nature of free software development and will be evident in any distro you care to use. The unified front you mention practically cannot exist.

    However, distributions in general are getting more user-friendly every day. The progress is but a snail's pace though it's quite respectable for volunteer organizations. Gentoo ships with a graphical installer now making portage, in my opinion the best package manager in existence, available to the masses. RedHat's RPM package manager system has gone from terrible to usable making distros that use it viable options. OpenOffice.org v2.0 is easy and intuitive to use after nearly a decade of MS Office.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: OS choice is largely based by what software you plan to use balanced against how much trouble you're willing to put up with from your OS. It's a decision you have to make for yourself but I and others have made the choice to use a Linux distro and found it to be superior to Windows for our usage.

    -drasnor :fold:
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited June 2006
    I didn't mean that there was no drive to make Linux easier to use, just not at the expensive of low level functionality and "power". I can't say everyone I know that uses it advocates it entirely though, i.e. for instance, I just had a nightmare of a time getting it to work on an nVidia SATA RAID0, although it did take less time to get working than Windows and I had more ways of being able to do it, heh.

    Although to be perfectly honest if I didn't play games quite often I'd likely used it exclusively.
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