Recommendations Please for Two PC Rebuilds
Need your comments, advice, and recommendations please for major upgrades I'll be performing to my two home computers when I return from the Middle East.
Here's what I've got:
System 1: Abit KX7333-R, Athlon XP2100, 512MB Samsung 2700, 2XWD800BB in RAID 0 config; Radeon 8500 LE 64MB, Alpha 8045 cooler, all in Global Win spacious aluminum case;
System 2: Abit KR7A-R, Athlon XP1900, 512MB Twinmoss 2700, 2XWD600BB in RAID 0 config, Radeon 8500 LE 128 MB; Alpha 8045 cooler, all in Antec (SOHO - forgot number) case;
Both systems have excellent, spacious cases, with good quality PSUs. Intent for new systems is only moderate (if any) overclocking. I want high performance, but instead of RAID and overclocking, my pursuit will be quiet operation, matched with first class speed. I will not be on benchmark quests but want snappy machines.
I am dead set on building an Intel machine. I've already built severeal Athlon machines and really want to add Intel to my repertoir.
Both machines will each have two hard drives - the second drive serving as an image drive. I'm religious about Ghosting my systems for backups. I do not intend to run RAID. Been doing that for two years now, and am tired of all the extra cables and extra variables when dealing with Windows installation. I do though, want RAID motherboards for the flexibility the extra HDD ports offer. I will tweak both machines as far as I can without raising temperatures and without compromising stability. I want minimum fans in both towers.
OK, here are my proposals. Please heap your comments, criticism and whatnot on me:
System 1 (Intel):
-- Mobo: MSI NEO FIS2R --EDIT - change to Abit IC7-- (Intel Canterwood, hyperthreading (800MHz FSB-4X200, 400MHz Memory)
-- CPU: Intel P4, 2800MHz, 800 FSB, Hyperthreading) (3.0+ GHz if prices fall soon)
-- Memory, PC3200, 2X512 Geil "Value Ultra" CAS 2.5/6-3-3 -2T (1024 MB of DDR at 2.5 CAS is more important to me than 512MB or high performance CAS 2; these 512 sticks at Newegg for $69).
-- HDD: WD800JB, 8MB cache
-- Video Card: use existing Radeon 8500LE 128MB -
-- This machine is for general purpose, consisting of heavy office applications, Folding, and some gaming.
System 2 (AMD):
-- Mobo: Abit NF7-S v2.0, (nForce 2-SPP Chipset, SATA RAID, Serillel adaptor)
-- CPU: AMD XP 2800 Barton, 400MHz FSB (XP 3000 Barton if prices fall soon)
-- Memory, PC3200, 2X512 Geil "Value Ultra" CAS 2.5/6-3-3 -2T (1024 MB of DDR at 2.5 CAS is more important to me than 512MB or high performance CAS 2; these 512 sticks at Newegg for $69).
-- HDD: WD800JB, 8MB cache
-- Video Card - ATI 9500 PRO if still available when I purchase parts
-- This machine is for general purpose, with emphasis on gaming and folding. Office applications of type also.
Leo
Here's what I've got:
System 1: Abit KX7333-R, Athlon XP2100, 512MB Samsung 2700, 2XWD800BB in RAID 0 config; Radeon 8500 LE 64MB, Alpha 8045 cooler, all in Global Win spacious aluminum case;
System 2: Abit KR7A-R, Athlon XP1900, 512MB Twinmoss 2700, 2XWD600BB in RAID 0 config, Radeon 8500 LE 128 MB; Alpha 8045 cooler, all in Antec (SOHO - forgot number) case;
Both systems have excellent, spacious cases, with good quality PSUs. Intent for new systems is only moderate (if any) overclocking. I want high performance, but instead of RAID and overclocking, my pursuit will be quiet operation, matched with first class speed. I will not be on benchmark quests but want snappy machines.
I am dead set on building an Intel machine. I've already built severeal Athlon machines and really want to add Intel to my repertoir.
Both machines will each have two hard drives - the second drive serving as an image drive. I'm religious about Ghosting my systems for backups. I do not intend to run RAID. Been doing that for two years now, and am tired of all the extra cables and extra variables when dealing with Windows installation. I do though, want RAID motherboards for the flexibility the extra HDD ports offer. I will tweak both machines as far as I can without raising temperatures and without compromising stability. I want minimum fans in both towers.
OK, here are my proposals. Please heap your comments, criticism and whatnot on me:
System 1 (Intel):
-- Mobo: MSI NEO FIS2R --EDIT - change to Abit IC7-- (Intel Canterwood, hyperthreading (800MHz FSB-4X200, 400MHz Memory)
-- CPU: Intel P4, 2800MHz, 800 FSB, Hyperthreading) (3.0+ GHz if prices fall soon)
-- Memory, PC3200, 2X512 Geil "Value Ultra" CAS 2.5/6-3-3 -2T (1024 MB of DDR at 2.5 CAS is more important to me than 512MB or high performance CAS 2; these 512 sticks at Newegg for $69).
-- HDD: WD800JB, 8MB cache
-- Video Card: use existing Radeon 8500LE 128MB -
-- This machine is for general purpose, consisting of heavy office applications, Folding, and some gaming.
System 2 (AMD):
-- Mobo: Abit NF7-S v2.0, (nForce 2-SPP Chipset, SATA RAID, Serillel adaptor)
-- CPU: AMD XP 2800 Barton, 400MHz FSB (XP 3000 Barton if prices fall soon)
-- Memory, PC3200, 2X512 Geil "Value Ultra" CAS 2.5/6-3-3 -2T (1024 MB of DDR at 2.5 CAS is more important to me than 512MB or high performance CAS 2; these 512 sticks at Newegg for $69).
-- HDD: WD800JB, 8MB cache
-- Video Card - ATI 9500 PRO if still available when I purchase parts
-- This machine is for general purpose, with emphasis on gaming and folding. Office applications of type also.
Leo
0
Comments
The only thing I'd change is the Barton 2800+ to a 3200+.
Hardocp: IC7-G Review
And even though I'm a staunch AMD supporter, I think a i875 Mobo and a P4 2.4C or 2.6C is a compelling value. If I were building another single CPU system this year this is what I would buy.
A 3.2-3.6ghz OC is a fast system no matter what app you run on it....
As for the Athlon system the Barton 2800+ (2.083ghz)or 3000+ (2.167ghz) are good choices (Nix the 3200+ its only 2.20ghz @ FSB400 and the 3000+ can be set to that level at stock voltage - save the cash)
The Abit NF7-S v2.0 is currently the best Athlon motherboard available - Good choice.
You are right about the memory on the Canterwood. Canterwood LOVES fsb and low timings, Amd rigs the opposite.
I would suggest that you get 2 X Twinmos sticks, no, Twinmos for both systems actually. Twinmos can be hard to get in the states, but i found a guy with a thread at amdmb in their Deal and Depot that sells them or make sure to get those.
http://www.amdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206235
As for the harddrives, why not go for 2 Western Digital Raptors (36 gb each) and a 80 gb WD se for backup? SATA is on that MSI board, im sure. Im using the SATA adaptors now and the cable mess are unbelievable.
Is watercooling out of the question?
Nothing is more quiet than that.
I want a Canterwood as well.
The Abit board looks good. If you get the Abit make sure its the G version. This will cost you well over $200, so be aware.
If you want to keep them quiet then move to coolers that use 90mm fans. I like the Thermalright but there are others also.
Uh, price! Besides, from what I've been able to gather so far, there isn't much of a real-world performance difference between the 2.8 and 3.2 - huge price stepping though. I just thought that the 2.8 seemed to have the best performance for the price. Maybe I'm wrong.
"...and 2 sticks of RAM.."
Absolutely! Dual channel. That's why I selected the Geil CAS 2.5 - 512MB sticks at Newegg for $69 each. I don't think I could afford quality CAS2 RAM, not for 2X512 for two computers. I'm thinking quantity over quality this time. We're talking $138 shipped for 1024 MB PC3200. Are you thinking I'd have better performance with only 512 (2X256) at CAS 2? Up to this point, I've always run at CAS 2.
Omega65 - I'll check out that Abit IG7 review. I've had four Abit boards, and enjoyed all of them. They MSI intrigued me - Anandtech called it their best Canterwood board so far.
Mack - I've got Twinmoss in my second system at home (PC2700). Again, I'm looking at a a Gig of DDR for each machine. Also, I probably won't be overclocking much.
The fan comment. Yeah I hear you. My goal is to run the system with nothing louder than Panaflo L series - that's why I probably won't be overclocking!
Thanks guys. It'll probably be about three weeks or more before I get around to upgrading, so keep the comments coming!
Leo
Why not split the diff and buy one cas2 pair and one slower. Then you could see which mobo it made the most difference on. You will have a uniqe opportunity to swap memory between the two. You find that in one it doesn't matter.
Good luck getting a flight out.
Very impressive performance, stability, and flexibility with that board. Definitely close to a masterpiece, if there is such a thing in the mobo world. But dang, that board costs $220! A bit too rich for me. I checked out the IC7 (no "G"). It has the features and performance I want, but does not yet accept 400MHz DDR. Maybe by the time a purchase, Abit will have the next revision IC7 out.
That gives about 3200/32XX in sandra benches. On a Canterwood, the same sticks would do around 4500/4500 i think.
Theres no use at all for the dual memory thing on Nforce 2 unfortunatly, you can hardly notice any difference at all.
Leo: Welcome to the highpriced world of Intel
A good i875P mobo can cost more than a Dual Athlon mobo (which will be faster & more responsive in General use, but not in games)
Mac is right - P4s need Bandwidth (Cas2 or Cas3 - sunc/async - it doesn't matter) while with Athlons Cas2 > Cas2.5 > Cas3 (sucks) And ONLY run Synchronous (FSB/Memory) Async ALWAYS performs worse than Sync for any chosen FSB
tek
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=property&DEPA=1
Go with system 2 - AMD all the way
Oh, ok.:banghead: I don't usually pay attention to small sigs like that. All that money he got from being where he is currently is going towards the computers.
Also, from what I've read at Overclockers.com in this article , it isn't necessary to run a sych fsb/mem speed so you could still have great performance running at a 5:4 or even a 3:2 ratio and still push that proc higher than stock speeds without worrying about your memory crapping out.
The WD hard drives for both systems are also a good choice, IMO. The price/performance ratio is simply totally against SATA drives for right now and the WD 800JB I have has performed well so far.
As far as the AMD system goes, I would buy a Barton XP2500 instead of the 2800 and just overclock it to 2800 or 3000 speeds because the 2500's are down to just $93 at Newegg nowdays. I agree with the Abit mobo as your choice as it seems to be the best nforce2 board out right now.
As for quiet cooling, I would stay with the stock Intel cooler if you don't plan to overclock it much and for the AMD system I would go with an SLK800 with a Delta FFB0812HHE fan, which is the quietest of the focused flow fans from Delta. I have 3 of them and they are pretty quiet. Use Panaflo L1A fans for your case fans and you should have 2 quiet running rigs.
Now, concerning the Canterwood 875 chipset motherboard. The Abit IC7 is looking more attractive. Here's a summary of the board and its features:
(Copied from Newegg's Intel-Abit page)
ABIT IC7, Intel 875P chipset for Socket 478 P4 Canterwood ATX motherboard RETAIL
Specifications:
Supported CPU:Intel® Pentium® 4 Socket 478 processors
Chipset:Intel® 875P / ICH5 RAID
FSB:800/533MHz 400FSB not Supported
RAM:4x 184pin Dual Channel DDR 400 Max 4GB ECC Support
IDE:2 x Ultra DMA 33/66/100 Connectors up to 4 Devices
SATA: 2x SATA For RAID 0
Slots:1 x AGP PRO, 5 x PCI slots
Ports:2xPS2,1xLPT,1xCOM,2xUSB2.0,1x1394 and Audio
Onboard Audio: 6-Channel AC 97 CODEC on
Onboard IEEE 1394: IEEE 1394a at 100/200/400 Mb/s transfer rate Model#: IC7
-- "400FSB not Supported". That is my only reservation with this board at this time. Whatever the P4 processor that goes in this machine, it WILL be a 400MHz part.
It will do what you want Leo.:)
The IC7 board looks like a nice board to use, you just have to put your own nic in it. I've heard that it overclocks real well too.:)
You guys are both correct. I've been winging through all this so fast that I've skimmed over some of the details too fast. Absolutely, the 800MHz "quad-pumped" (4X200) is exactly what I wanted, that's why I had only considered the 865 or 875 Intel chipsets in the first place. And yes, I had the 800MHz and 400MHz confused on this. If it weren't for the 875 or 865, I wouldn't have considered Intel this time around.
Thanks guys. It now looks like I'll be going with the Abit IC7. Abit family with and Intel and AMD children.:D
???
865PE & 875P Memory Guide
Here's how it stacks up (very close to what I had originally planned):
SYSTEM 1 (INTEL)
Mobo: Abit IC7 - Intel "Canterwood" 875 chipset, hyperthreading, 800MHz FSB-4X200, 400MHz Memory (Monarchcomputer.com)
-- CPU: Intel P4, 2800MHz, 800 FSB, Hyperthreading (private trade)
-- Memory, PC3200, 2X512 Geil "Value Ultra" CAS 2.5/6-3-3 -2T (1024 MB of DDR at 2.5 CAS is more important to me than 512MB of high performance CAS 2) (Newegg @$73/512MB module)
-- HDD: 2 X 80GB Maxtor Ultra, 8MB cache, RAID 0 config (Staples)
-- HDD: (Ghost - backup), Western Digital, WD800JB, 8MB cache (private trade)
-- Video Card: Radeon 9500 Pro (private trade)
-- rounded cables throughout (SVCompucycle - .99 to $2.49 each! sale is still on as of today! already installed in my current systems - work perfectly. Airflow IS better.)
-- PSU: Robontron 600W, absolutely super power supply, rock solid voltage lines at overclock (existing system - former private trade with Tex!)
-- HSF - stock Intel unit that will arrive with my P4 2.8. I'll hone the base and install one of my Mechatronics 80mm jobbers.
-- GlobalWin YCC 61F1 aluminum, homely, but oh-so-well engineered and spacious (present system)
SYSTEM 2 (AMD):
-- Mobo: Abit NF7-S v2.0, (nForce 2-SPP Chipset, SATA RAID (Monarch - guaranteed rev. 2.0)
-- CPU: AMD XP 2800 Barton (Newegg)
-- Memory, PC3200, 2X512 Geil "Value Ultra" CAS 2.5/6-3-3 -2T (Newegg)
-- HDD: WD800JB, 8MB cache (private trade)
-- HDD: (backup-Ghost) IBM GXP 60GB (from present system - hey, it's been perfectly reliable so far, and quite fast and quiet running)
-- Video Card - Radeon 8500LE 128MB OEM (from present system; may upgrade later to 9500 Pro)
-- PSU: Robontron 600W, absolutely super power supply, rock solid voltage lines at overclock (existing system - former private trade Tex!)
-- HSF: Alpha 8045/Mechatronics fan (present system)
-- Case: Chieftec (Antec 1030B) (present system)
I thought long and hard about my choice of the CAS 2.5 Geil RAM - not exactly head-spinning performance. I went through all the pros and cons of high-speed versus sheer volume. I opted for volume. Hey, what can I say - 2GB PC3200 CAS 2.5 for $292. Supposedly the RAM runs well in dual channel, NF2, and Intel 875 systems. We'll see.
Stock HSF unit for Intel box - I'll lap it well, slap on a Mechatronics, and apply Arctic Silver III. We'll see how it goes. I can always upgrade later. Hey, anyone know if socket A Athlon heatsinks will fit Intel Socket 478? (Sorry, haven't researched that one yet.) If that's the case, I've got another Alpha 8045 coming out of one of my systems for it.
New systems/rebuilds financed mainly through "travel pay" from my adventure in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
(A little spam? HEADS UP - parts from my present systems will soon be posted for sale at the Deal Depot & Trading Post. Preview: KX7333-R, volt-modded!; AXP 2000; KR7A-R; AXP 1900; PC2700 DRAM - Samsung, TwinMOS; WD BB series hard drives.....)
Leo
Preliminary comments:
1. Both were relatively easy to build. Both were fairly easy to configure. The edge here for ease of software/OS setup is the AMD system. The IC7 system was relatively easy to setup, except that I had to learn BIOS settings for "On-chip" SATA. NF7-Barton was rock solid stable from the moment OS was installed and motherboard drivers were installed. Intel was equally stable after minor tweaks.
2. Both systems' OS installation was without a clean install, as so-- OS install; remove/uninstall nearly all drivers and devices; shut down system; disassemble; rebuild; reset CMOS; start-boot to CD; install WinXP in "Repair" mode.
3. Geil RAM performs exactly as advertised - CAS 2.5, 6-3-3. It's running perfectly in the NF7 box, and is running famously in the Intel system with Hyperthreading and dual channel enabled.
4. Bugs - NF7 has NONE whatsoever; IC7 3.3 voltage fluctuates from 3.1 to 3.7; IC7's hardware monitoring software (both Motherboard Monitor 5 and Hardware Doctor) report CPU core temperature 30+*C higher than BIOS reports.
5. OK, the BIG question. PERFORMANCE? Completely unempirically with no tests or benchmarks to back up my statement.... I give the edge to the Intel Canterwood system. It is simply fast, fast, fast. The NF7 is not far behind it, though.
6. Dual channel goodness (Intel) - running two instances of Folding@Home. One instance is as a service, run by one channel (virtual "CPU 1"); the other instance in normal mode by "CPU 0".
I will be posting a separate thread concerning the IC7's 3.3 apparent voltage fluctuation under the Motherboards forum.
No overclocking....yet. That should prove to be quite fun.
Fixed whine of the WD800JBs. Pretty simple, I merely affixed felt pads, the kind used on kitchen drawers and cabinets, onto the hard drives' surfaces that come into contact with the Chieftec's drive cages.
My hat is off to both Intel and AMD. To Intel - finally a CPU-chipset combo that really lives up to the hype; to AMD - nVidea - excellent engineering that is very competitive.
This was my first Intel build. I've always said that I'd go with whoever had the best bang for the buck. Intel was slightly more expensive, but not by much considering I'm using the stock, $3 Intel heatsink fan unit. And, oh yes - why can't AMD come up with a heatsink retention mechanism as simple and easy to use as the P4's?
Leo
PS - Thank you to Ageek, for helping me understand the Hyperthreading-Dual Channel workings and Windows interaction with it.
THANKS! - never considered that.......
Two choices if you use silicone-- let the silicone cure with machine screw in place, unscrew machine screw when cured, or let the silicone cure after mounting. It then acts as a vibration deadener.