New PC, now what?

JustinJustin Atlanta
edited November 2003 in Hardware
I would like to thank everybody here for all their help inthe past. I have a new issue now... a new computer...
Specs: 2.5ghz celeron, 768mb ram, 40GB HD, Intel "Extreme" graphics, this is a base model eMachine with 512MB added. I am trying to configure it to run optimally with the likes of CoD, Battle Engine Aquila, Homeworld 2, and other graphics heavy games. What should I look for, what should I tweak, how can I make this an awesome computer? Any help would be appreciated.:respect:
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Comments

  • RiddickRiddick Malaysia Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    ermm no offense but your built-in graphic card will seriously limit and hamper your abilities to play those "graphic heavy games"
    other than that the specs are pretty okay

    try getting a better card for yourself :D
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    I was looking at a PNY GeForce 5700 Ultra AGP 128MB DDR2. Should this work with the other specs? Is it difficult to install? What can I do to optimize my system after the instalation of the card? I read alot about nVidia, the PNY card says it has it, what is it and why is it so good?
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Utilizing Intel's "Extreme" Graphics to play any of today's heavy graphics games is going to give you abysmal performance.

    Intel's Extreme Graphics is not even a DirectX 7.0 compatible part, meaning that even the simplest of 3D calculations must be calculated by the CPU, severely hampering your performance.

    If you want to have a chance at all to play Call Of Duty, Battle Engine Aquila, Homeworld 2, Doom 3, Half-Life 2 or UT2004, you are going to need a new graphics adapter.

    Depending on how much you want to spend, both ATI and NVidia have cards that will suit your setup. Personally, for that system you have configured, pickup a ATI Radeon 9600 Pro 128 MB card and you'll be in much better shape to play 3D games. The difference will be night and day compared to your Intel "Extreme" Graphics.

    What speed of memory does your E-Machine use? I'm guessing it's DDR, but I have a sinking feeling that it's DDR266...

    To be blunt, the only way you can really make an E-Machine awesome is to sell it and use the money from that sale to purchase a system designed for high-performance from Alienware, Voodoo or Falcon Northwest, or to build it yourself.
  • ketoketo Occupied. Or is it preoccupied? Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    The 5700 PNY card would be a reasonable solution, tho SimGuy has the best suggestion unfortunately - the part at the bottom of his post. But first you need to look at the motherboard and see if there is an AGP slot. It is usually brown, about 4" long, and is located closest to your cpu (where the heatsink & fan are). If you don't have an AGP slot, you are limited to PCI solutions for video upgrade, and the 5700 or 9600 are not available in PCI AFAIK.

    If you have an AGP slot, it's pretty easy to install but check first and if you decide to go that way we can walk you thru installation and optimizing.
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    Brutal.... What are emachines limitations? I will get the new card, what else should I look at? The 512mb ram I installed this weekend is 2100 DDR Kensington....any issues there? What other things can I look for to make my limited system as useful as possible? Any system tweaks or adjustments I can do? What is the best PCI solution if I do not have an AGP slot?
  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    I completely agree with Keto and Simguy on this: Seriously you should just write off your loss, sell the computer part by part on ebay to get a few bucks off of it, and build your own. What are EMachines limitations? They weren't designed for gaming in the first place. They use the cheapest possible componenets in order to keep the price low. They are "commodity" computers - I liken them to toasters. Everybody should have one, but if you want to become a sous chef, the Wal-Mart $9.99 Toaster-Matic isn't gonna cut it.

    Does your emachines even have an AGP port? Many commodity computers with built-in graphics don't even have the ability to allow you to upgrade the video card.. PC2100 is low-bandwidth memory..

    As far as your last question, the best PCI solution isn't gonna even allow you to play the games you want to play. The very best PCI video card you can get is the Radeon 7500 (or is it 7000, I forget)... and it's not gonna perform very well for current games.

    You need a new computer.... sorry :(
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    If you don't have an AGP slot (as Keto mentioned, the 4" brown slot on the right hand side of your white PCI slots), then you will be limited to a PCI video card. Because of the bandwidth limitations of the PCI bus, performance with a PCI video card will not be as optimal as it would be with an AGP-based video card, but it will definately be better than Intel's "Extremely Craptacular" Graphics.

    PowerColor makes a PCI Radeon 9000 64 MB video card, which will give you DirectX 8.1 video card extensions, however there is one downfall to this card: Because it is operating on the PCI bus, the clock speeds of the core & memory of the video card have been scaled back so the card does not completely saturate the available bandwidth of the PCI bus. This results in a substantial performance drop, to the level where the Radeon 9000 performs just as well in raw frame-rate tests as the GeForce 4 MX. Therefore, it will perform better than Intel's Extreme Graphics, but it won't be as fast as the regular AGP Radeon 9000.

    Pray to god you have an AGP slot... :)

    Powercolor Radeon 9000 64 MB PCI - $91.00
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    Moving away from the graphic shortcomings of my system, I was wondering about the page file size... It seemed to me that a larger page file would take some strain of the RAM, I have also read that a smaller page file size is best. Which is it? Can I use a better RAM than 2100? With an AGP slot, I should be able to use the aforementioneed AGP card, eventhough I have a sub standard "toast-o-matic" computer?
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Yes, if you have an AGP slot, grab either the Radeon 9600 Pro (or the 9600XT if you want extreme mid-range performance). You could try the GeForce FX 5700 Ultra, but I can't recommend any of the NV3x series of video cards because of their performance in DX9 titles (which all next generation games will be based upon).

    As for your pagefile, if you have under 1 GB of RAM, the general concensus is to set your page file to 1.5x the amount of system RAM you have and place the page file on the FASTEST hard disk in your system.

    Depending on the chipset features that are supported by your system (probably the i845GE chipset), I don't think your system can utilize higher-bandwidth memory. Sure, you can install DDR333 or DDR400 memory modules, but because the system only supports at the maximum DDR266 modules, you wouldn't get any tangible benefits (other than the modules could be utilized in newer systems, which DO support DDR333 & DDR400 modules fully).

    Check your E-Machine documentation and post what chipset that -Machine has (it may be referred to as Core Logic, System Logic, Northbridge/Southbridge or just Chipset).
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited November 2003
    Can you give me a link to the e-machines model you bought?

    1. The GeForce FX series is crap. Crap, crap, crap, crap, CRAP. ATi's cards in the same price range outperform every one of nVidia's offerings. The GeForce FX is THE SINGLE BIGGEST SCREW UP in the history of the graphics industry, if not the entire computer industry.

    2. Yes, you can use ram that's faster than PC2100, but depending on the board EMachines uses, it may be of no help at all.

    3. before you go upgrading graphics cards and RAM, upgrade the cooling system. I've looked @ the new emachines, and for the price, they're decent, but they have no case fans. New systems require a great deal more cooling than they did when the P2/P3 was king. You really do need to get some case fans for it before you put in a high-powered graphics card and stuff, unless you want to risk possibly killing the card.

    4. Paging file size is a really difficult issue. There are people who say less is better, and people who say more is better. Your best bet is to leave it alone and let Windows decide.
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_T2542

    This is the model I got. The only thing I have changed is I added 512 of RAM (Kensington PC2100DDR), everything else is stock. It has two fans in it, would that not be enough? Sim Guy, You were spot on on the chipset.
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Bad news, the i845GV chipset does not support an AGP bus.
    According to Intel's block diagram for the i845GV, it only has "Digital Video Out" (IE Intel's Extreme Graphics).

    Looks like you can only use a PCI video card. :(

    On the bright side, you can utilize a 533 MHz FSB Intel Pentium 4 CPU in this comp... which will speed things up compared to your Celeron, but it will cost ya major $$$ for a P4B.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited November 2003
    Well, I can tell you a few things:

    1. By 2 fans, I assume you mean 1 on the cpu, and 1 at the back of the computer in the power supply, right?

    If so, then no, that is not sufficient.

    2. Going for RAM that's faster than PC2100 won't make any difference without a motherboard upgrade.

    I'm downloading SUN JAVA right now, and when that's done I'll use E-Machine's live chat feature to find out what board that thing has. E-Machines doesn't say, unfortunately.
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    I apprecaite all the help. So in summary, The best I can do is a PCI upgrade unless I swap out the whole motherboard, I am pretty much stuck with my RAM unless I swap out the motherboard, and I will need some new/more fans if I hope to have a better graphics processor, on my new motherboard. Sounds like I have some work to do...
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited November 2003
    Well... first of all, have you checked to see if it's got an AGP slot, or do you have a digital camera so you can take a pic of the inside of the case so we can see what we're dealing with?

    I've got bad news, and worse news.

    The bad news:
    It's got a 250w generic power supply

    The worse news:
    It has a Trigem motherboard. Trigem is a generic, OEM-only brand. Their boards are notorious for being (for lack of a better term) total crap.

    Other news:
    Unless you upgrade the power supply, (and MAYBE the motherboard... if it has an AGP slot, and you're on a budget, it'll be fine) you won't be able to do much with this thing.

    How many slot cutouts are there on the back of the case (or better yet, how many slots does the board have?). I don't know how computer-literate you are, so I'm going to attach a pic of what I mean... please don't take offense if I insult your intelligence, as that is not my intent.

    Oh, and SimGuy, the board in the attached pic is an Intel i845gv board. It has an AGP slot. ;)
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    I am at work right now but I am pretty sure I have either four or five slots in the back. The internal board looks familiar, and I appreciate the picture. I believe that is the exact board we are dealing with. I will be home shortly and I will look in it at that time, I seem to recall that AGP slot though. If it is there, will I still need a power supply upgrade? I would assume then that I would also need more power to run the cooling fans when I can install those. I am al but positive that the above picture is my board though. What next?
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited November 2003
    I hope that board is yours... it's an Intel motherboard, not a Trigem, but Intel could very well have TriGem making their boards.

    We'll have to wait and see about the board before we can figure out what kind of graphics upgrade you could do. Also, it is going to depend on your budget.

    The system you have now has a fair amount of potential in that the 2.5GHz Celeron is decently fast (it's ~= 2GHz P4) but the motherboard is holding it back. The problem is that the Pentium 4 (and Pentium 4-based Celerons... ALL Celerons that are 1.7GHz or faster are Pentium 4 based) is (IMO) an inherently flawed design.

    The reason I say this is because the chip is extremely sensitive to the speed of the memory it has. AMD Athlons can run with old PC133 SDRAM without much of a performance hit. However, if you run a P4 on SDRAM, you will cut it's performance by 50-75%. The only way to provide the P4 with the memory bandwidth it wants is RDRAM (which is basically extinct, absurdly expensive, and not worth it), or dual-channel DDR. To use dual-channel DDR, you'll need a new motherboard.

    I don't have time to explain it all in detail right now (I'll do it when I get home tonight tho... if I don't, remind me), but depending on your budget, a motherboard upgrade would probably be a good idea.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Fans really don't strain the PSU so they wouldn't really be the reason for a new PSU. Take this as an example, my system was fine, but then I put a Radeon 9700 in it and now the PSU stuggles (431w Enermax, which is considerably (probably) better than a no-name 250w PSU).

    First thing to check though is that there is infact an AGP slot.

    I can't believe our Digital Technologies lecturer today was telling us that the Northbridge and Southbridge are being replaced with the MCH and IOCH. Geez, he acts like a complete noob buying all this intel marketing crap.

    NS
  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Which is where the crux of the problem lies:

    Okay, you already spent $xxx on the E-machine.. Now, you're gonna have to replace the motherboard, get some new RAM, beef up the cooling, a new video card, oh, and oh yeah, you need a new PS to support all this, etc... At this point, you will have spent way more than buying all the parts to build your own decent computer would have cost - which is why I humbly suggest, again, that you write it off, recover what money you can out of the machine, and build a new box.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited November 2003
    Prime is right, if you've got the time and money, you'd be better off buying a new system.

    Upgrading yours is going to run $100-$300+...
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    I don't mind the cost of an upgrade, I am looking at this as a learning experience. I want to know all about this stuff so that when I am in here and someone has a question, I can answer it as adeptly as all of you have. What fans would you all suggest to keep this new unit I am going to construct in good shape? Would I be able to get and install new parts and then sell the old parts, Prime? Is ebay a good place to do this? I like the idea of starting fresh and building my own, what steps should I take in doing this? How do I build a sweet computer?
  • ketoketo Occupied. Or is it preoccupied? Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    **Edited** Looks like we have you pointing in the right direction now :)

    You have a few decisions to make:

    CPU - AMD (better performance/$ ratio) or Intel (higher clock speeds/more expensive)

    Motherboard - recommendations will follow based on above

    Memory - depends on which cpu and motherboard, also will you expect to overclock (run system out of spec at higher speeds) at all?

    Drives - Hard Drive(s)? CD/DVD Drive(s)? Burning ability?

    Video Card - biggest decision is going to be cost range. There are good budget (<$100?), mid-range (<$200) and top end ($200++) solutions to suggest.

    Cooling and Case and Power Supply fall fairly naturally together in one category, and will be guided on the above plus budget considerations.
  • MancabusMancabus Charlottesville, VA
    edited November 2003
    primesuspect had this to say
    Which is where the crux of the problem lies:

    Okay, you already spent $xxx on the E-machine.. Now, you're gonna have to replace the motherboard, get some new RAM, beef up the cooling, a new video card, oh, and oh yeah, you need a new PS to support all this, etc... At this point, you will have spent way more than buying all the parts to build your own decent computer would have cost - which is why I humbly suggest, again, that you write it off, recover what money you can out of the machine, and build a new box.

    Prime is right, you probably should ditch the E-Machine, possibly scrap it for parts, CPU, RAM, Floppy, CD drive.

    I read a review of that model and it said there is no AGP slot, and that there are only 3 PCI slots. Pretty sad I must say

    You could get by, by buying a new motherboard that will accept the 2.5Ghz Celly and your PC2100 RAM, and get a 350W or above PSU.
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    First, what is this AMD64fx I keep reading about? For the CPU, I think I would probably go P4. I would like the overclocking ability(I think, it sounds cool anyway, what is it exactly, how does it affect performance), I think I would go for mid-to-high-end memory, big hard drive (250GB+-), CD/DVD Burner, High end video card, and rugged case to protect my new creation... I would like to stay somewhat budget concious but I understand that what I am tlking about here does not exactly fall into that category. Any suggestions?
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    If you are going to be building an P4 Overclocking system, you'll want the following:

    -> Any grade P4 "C" variant (the 800 MHz FSB type)
    -> Either thte Asus P4C800-E Deluxe or ABIT IC7-MAX3 motherboard. Both overclock just as well... but the ABIT gives a slight performance increase over the P4C800-E Deluxe. Don't skimp on the motherboard. Dual Channel DDR400, SATA RAID, IDE RAID, Onboard 6 Channel Audio, OTES, etc are important features that are necessary to get the most out of the Pentium 4 platforum.

    -> High quality Corsair/Kingston/Mushkin DDR400 (or higher) memory. Make sure you purchase 2 identical sticks of memory (or the "Twin" packs) that are designed for use in Dual Channel mode. By using Dual Channel memory, you effectively double the theoretical memory bandwidth available to the system (The P4C required 6.4 GB/sec memory bandwidth, which can only be delivered by dual channel DDR400 (3.2 GB/sec x 2).

    -> For your hard disk, look no further than Western Digital or Seagate. As well, choose a SATA hard disk over the older IDE hard disk if budget permits. :)

    -> High end video card? Radeon 9800 Pro/XT.

    -> CD/DVD Burner? Plextor's PlexWriter PX-780A or Pioneer's DVR-A06 are nice. They both support the DVD+/-R & DVD+/-RW formats. :)

    -> Case? Well... it's a matter of aesthetic style. Some people like the beige box, others don't. The Antec SX1040/1060/1080, Chenming 601AE and Chieftec Dragon are all the same case, short of slight visual styling and power supply. You'll want a nice large mid-tower case with plenty of internal space. Don't get anything cramped, as it will hamper your cooling ability. :)

    -> PSU? Antec's TruePower 430W PSU will do you fine.
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    Are these specs maxed out, average, or budget consious? Where should I start looking for this stuff? I'm guessing not Best Buy...
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Those are pretty much maxxed out. :)

    You could purchase a cheaper video card (9600Pro/XT), one of the slower P4C's (2.4 or 2.6 GHz), but you want one of those motherboards, the hard disk, the power supply and the dual-channel DDR SDRAM.

    The case is up to you :)

    You are in the US, so look at www.newegg.com for the best price on great parts.
  • ketoketo Occupied. Or is it preoccupied? Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Well, the Intel system is going to be more money overall than the AMD system, just due to processor cost alone. The below suggestions are based around an AMD configuration.

    The system above is a high end/fairly high cost system - especially the motherboard and video card, tho the drives are all on the higher end also (both HD if SATA and the Plextor/Pioneer DVDs)

    A rock stable and fast configuration that many in here use or have close variations of - and is more "average" cost:

    AMD 2500+ Barton CPU **Let us find you the right one, with the right stepping code**

    ABIT NF7-S Motherboard (Alternative: Asus A7N8X Deluxe)

    512 MB Kingston HyperX PC 3200 (DDR400) Memory *DUAL CHANNEL KIT 2 X 256 MB** (somewhat cheaper than Corsair or Mushkin but still high performance)

    ATI 9600 Pro Video Card

    Hard Drive - Western Digital 80 GB 8MB cache IDE HD (change size to taste)

    Lite-On DVD + - RW (also plays and burns CD's)

    Power Supply - as above. Case as above or to taste. Cooling, for cpu go with the (one I cant remember right now, available @ SVC for $20 with coupon code someone will be along shortly with the link).

    I'm in Canada, so I'll let someone else suggest the retailers.

    One more question - assuming you own a version of Windows, what version do you own?
  • JustinJustin Atlanta
    edited November 2003
    Xp home, came with emachines...
  • ketoketo Occupied. Or is it preoccupied? Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Not sure if that E-Machines version will function properly or may have features ""enhanced"" or disabled for a 'normal' system, anybody else know?
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