Falsely Labelled Radeon 9700 Pro

SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
edited April 2005 in Hardware
Anyone care to take a stab at this one? I can't figure it out and need some input.

I've got what I thought was a retail ATI Radeon 9700 Pro, 128 MB, TV-OUT.

It's identical in PCB shape, size, features and even includes the RED ATI sticker to the left of the VPU to denote that the card is a Radeon 9700 Pro Retail card. AFAIK, it's a 9700 Pro Retail.

The white S/N & P/N sticker on the back plate of the card reads "RADEON9700PRO128MB" and "1029420630".

I ran the P/N number through ATI's 102 Part Number Checker (http://apps.ati.com/102lookup/) and came back with this:

RADEON 9700 PRO 128MB VGA DVI-I TVOUT
BIOS: 11394206101
PART: 1029420630

Okay, so the card says it's supposed to be a 9700 Pro (which default clocks at 325/210).

I check the card.. it has Infineon 3.3ns RAM, rated for 303 MHz operation. Okay, strange... as NO retail ATI R9700 Pro's that I know of carried Infineon.. they all used 2.86ns Samsung.

Now, I check the clock speeds of memory & core: 275 MHz Core, 270 MHz DDR Memory. Okay, what the hell is going on?

I check the BIOS that was on the card (which I have not looked at in nearly 2 months) and it's a HYNIX DDR BIOS for an Infineon based card clocked at 275/270. This raises another eyebrow. I try upclocking the card... it won't even reach 310/290, yet this card is SUPPOSED to be a 9700 Pro.

AFAIK, the ONLY ATI Retail cards that shipped with 3.3 Infineon was the 9500 Pro/9700 NP, as 3.3 Infineon won't make the cut for 9700 Pro operation. Something's up....

AFAIK, I believe that the BIOS on this card has been flashed PRIOR to my purchase of it (it's second hand). Why? The BIOS I pulled off the card doesn't match the memory type (Hynix in BIOS -vs- Infineon on the card), the clock speeds of the card don't match (9700 NP in BIOS, 9700 Pro is what every physical label tells me). Finally, the BIOS Part Number supposed to be used for this card (113-94206-101) does NOT match what is contained within the current BIOS (113-94223-101).

ATI mistake? Prior owner screwing with the card and selling it modified? What would you do in this situation?

Photo's available upon request.
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Comments

  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Update: I ran the HYNIX BIOS 113 ID number through ATI's 102 Checker and got the following:

    RADEON 9700 128MB VGA DVI-I TVOUT PAL
    BIOS: 11394223101
    PART: 102A0410230

    This Hynix BIOS should be no-where near this card. It's for a 9700 NP, yet it's installed on my 9700 Pro. The PART number for this Hynix BIOS doesn't match my card's 102 ID number, which further states that it shouldn't be here. PAL TV-OUT? Why would a North-American card ship with a PAL TV-OUT Interface?
  • TheBaronTheBaron Austin, TX
    edited November 2003
    well since you know whats going on, and since its you've probably registered it, and since its even MORE likely that you, like the rest of us, wont be satisfied with anything but the best... i say RMA it
  • GargGarg Purveyor of Lincoln Nightmares Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Can you flash the correct BIOS on it?
  • Park_7677Park_7677 Missouri Member
    edited November 2003
    With the fact that it has 3.3ns RAM on it, says it's a NON-PRO. Someone used a hacked BIOS and some fake ATI stickers.

    Here is a story of the same thing:
    Resellerratings.com

    The item on the invoice is clearly stated “ATI Radeon 9700 Pro 128MB DDR” with part number “HATI-9700PRO”, however what they shipped me is not a *REAL* Radeon 9700 Pro, it is a counterfeit item using the Radeon 9700 non-pro version with refreshed VGA BIOS. I used a few utilities to read the GPU data and the results indicate that it is a regular Radeon 9700 and not the pro version! I have also checked with ATI company and they believe what I have is not a real Radeon 9700 Pro.

    1. The memory on the card is Infineon 3.3ns, a real "PRO" should be using 2.8ns memory, mostly made by Samsung.
    2. The core/memory on the card are clocked at 275/270, that is the spec for the regular Radeon 9700 non-pro version. A real "PRO" should be clocked at 325/310.
    3. Although the VGA BIOS device ID is modified to report Radeon 9700 Pro, the GPU core properties is still indicating it is "ATI Radeon 9700" and NOT “PRO”.
    4. The label sticker at the back on the card is with fake bar code, although it is written "Radeon 9700 Pro", the card is actually a Radeon 9700 non-pro.

    I know for nVidia cards you can simply edit the BIOS to report almost any core in the GeForce series. I have a feeling something like that was done to your BIOS + fake stickers.
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Gargoyle had this to say
    Can you flash the correct BIOS on it?

    Nope. It won't even do 310/290, let alone the usual 325/310.
    I did try flashing the RETAIL ATI 9700 Pro 8.003 BIOS onto the card, clocked 325/310 with Samsung memory. All the card did was start up and not give me a picture at all.

    Had to breakout the PCI card and reflash back to the ****ty Hynix BIOS that was on the card.

    Seeing as this merchandise was bought here from a member of Short-Media, I'm not going to be able to RMA it. I don't know whether they sold it to me knowing full-well it was modified or not, but I intend to find out.

    The stickers on the card have to be faked, as the little red ATI one is falling off and is folded over (should have been my first indication of a fraudulent product).

    Son of a bitch.!!!! ****ing $300 big ones down the drain for a god damned $200.00 card. :mad2: :mad2: I guess I know what to give my little brother for Christmas now :D
  • MachineGunKellyMachineGunKelly The STICKS, Illinois
    edited November 2003
    Pretty crappy brother. Want me to send a dozen bikers to his house for some 'enlightenment'? :D
  • CammanCamman NEW! England Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    that is pretty ****ty, keep us updated on it though..
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    machinegunkelly had this to say
    Pretty crappy brother. Want me to send a dozen bikers to his house for some 'enlightenment'? :D

    Can I take a raincheque on that offer? I may need to cash that in within the next 24-48 hours :D
  • CreepCreep Hell Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    SimGuy had this to say
    Seeing as this merchandise was bought here from a member of Short-Media, I'm not going to be able to RMA it. I don't know whether they sold it to me knowing full-well it was modified or not, but I intend to find out.

    Ouch, let us know what's going on!
  • TheLostSwedeTheLostSwede Trondheim, Norway Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Simguy,

    I almost wished i never mentioned the partnumber search thing in GNomes thread. This is a pretty crappy story i must say. Since you are a good friend with ATI ( :D ) , could they help you search which retailer that sold it to it's first customer?

    My 9800 NP, has never, and i mean never booted as a NP, always as a Pro even with stock drivers and all. Does that mean i have a Pro bios on my NP card? Core clocks like a beast.
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited November 2003
    By "retail" do you mean made by ATI or a video card manufactured by another company such as SAPPHIRE that you bought at a retail store?

    Was this an OEM card you bought at a retail store?

    The reason I ask is the RAM chips tips me off. The 9800 PRO used different RAM chips. 1) ATI got a heck of a deal on them and 2) they could produce a product that essentially was a "souped up" 9700 PRO. The core was a bit different.

    Now in theory. If the video card you bought was a "Made by ATI" product manufactured by ATI and was bought at a reputable retail store such as Best Buy then you can be rightly suspicious of the differences in specs. I would then take this information, printed out, and the video card back to the store for a full refund or exchange immediately.

    If the card is by another manufacturer who has licensed the technology from ATI then there very well may be differences in RAM chips and so forth.

    If that manufacturer's website clearly states that particular model number will operate at a certain core and memory speed at default settings...and it doesn't...again...back to the point of purchase for a refund and/or back the manufacturer for the proper product you assumed you were purchasing.
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    MediaMan had this to say
    By "retail" do you mean made by ATI or a video card manufactured by another company such as SAPPHIRE that you bought at a retail store?

    Was this an OEM card you bought at a retail store?

    The reason I ask is the RAM chips tips me off. The 9800 PRO used different RAM chips. 1) ATI got a heck of a deal on them and 2) they could produce a product that essentially was a "souped up" 9700 PRO. The core was a bit different.

    Now in theory. If the video card you bought was a "Made by ATI" product manufactured by ATI and was bought at a reputable retail store such as Best Buy then you can be rightly suspicious of the differences in specs. I would then take this information, printed out, and the video card back to the store for a full refund or exchange immediately.

    If the card is by another manufacturer who has licensed the technology from ATI then there very well may be differences in RAM chips and so forth.

    If that manufacturer's website clearly states that particular model number will operate at a certain core and memory speed at default settings...and it doesn't...again...back to the point of purchase for a refund and/or back the manufacturer for the proper product you assumed you were purchasing.

    Seeing as this merchandise was bought here from a member of Short-Media, I'm not going to be able to RMA it. I don't know whether they sold it to me knowing full-well it was modified or not, but I intend to find out.

    By retail, I mean I believe it to be a BUILT BY ATI video card. I've attached a picture of the card. Notice the red ATI sticker? Only on ATI retail cards. The back of the card has a genuine BBA Serial Number & Part Number sticker that checks out with ATI's 102 number.

    ATI's BBA 9700 Pro's NEVER shipped with Infineon 3.3ns DDR SGRAM. Why? It won't make the 310 MHz required for operation. ATI's BBA 9700 Pro's ALWAYS shipped with 2.86ns Samsung SGRAM.

    As well, the BIOS installed on this card had 2 things wrong with it.

    First, the header stated RADEON 9700 HYNIX 3.6 DDR BIOS, which does not match the memory found onboard. Next, the BIOS was not clocked correctly, running at 282/270, when it is supposed to be clocked at 325/310 (9700Pro default clocks).

    As far as I can tell by the evidence on this card, it's a 9700NP that has been BIOS altered and physically altered (ATI retail sticker and RADEON 9700 Pro P/N & S/N stickers) to impersonate a Radeon 9700 Pro.
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Here's the rear label that's on the card (notice it says 9700PRO) and that those PN & SN numbers check out as 9700PRO serials & part numbers.

    Memory reads the following:

    Infineon
    DDR SGRAM
    HYB25D128323C-33
    A
    0228 SUU29858
  • Al_CapownAl_Capown Indiana
    edited November 2003
    SimGuy had this to say
    Seeing as this merchandise was bought here from a member of Short-Media, I'm not going to be able to RMA it. I don't know whether they sold it to me knowing full-well it was modified or not, but I intend to find out.

    Just a sidenote,
    I pm'ed "this member" (i'm leaving it blank because he very well could have had no knowledge of the incident) informing him that you needed to speak with him immediately. Not sure if he has seen it as I haven't received a pm back and I don't have the send a receipt when you read it feature turned on. Anyone know how to turn that feature on?
  • MediaManMediaMan Powered by loose parts.
    edited November 2003
    You may have a point. In my brief nosing about it appears that Infineon memory was used with NON pro versions. The fact that an ATI sticker is on the PCB is proof of nothing. My 9700 PRO direct from ATI doesn't have such a sticker.

    But it does have the Samsung memory

    I also notice that there is no P/N on the PCB at the top left above the VGA port. I don't know if that means anything or not. The S/N and P/N is different from mine but stickers are also proof of nothing.

    You could pull the heatsink and look at the core itself. My black caps (top right and upper left) are slightly different from yours. The furthest right is marked 3R3 and the one to the left is marked 2R2. Again...this probably means nothing.

    Apparently only Samsung and Infineon supply BGA memory chips that can run at speeds above 600MHz. It should be pointed out that Samsung memory is installed on most of the GeForce4 Ti and RADEON 9700 based graphics cards, while Infineon is used on Matrox Parhelia graphics cards


    The default core speed is clocked at 275MHz (as opposed to the 325MHz of the Radeon 9700 Pro). The 128-MB of DDR memory, still utilizing the 256-bit bus, is clocked at 540 MHz, compared to the Radeon 9700 Pro's memory speed of 620 MHz.

    So you have an interesting bit of detective work on you hands.

    This may help a bit.
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Is your 9700 Pro an engineering sample or review board? The reason I ask it sometimes review boards are not necessarily indicitive of what ships.

    The fact that my card has a PAL/NTSC selector in the top left corner would suggest that it was manufacturered by a company that wants to be able to sell the card anywhere in the world. I've never seen another 9700 Pro with that jumper selector in the corner.

    I suppose that there is no way to tell if the card if manufacturered by ATI themselves, considering the stickers on the card don't match what this card is, it's hard to take their information as hard-proof. Did ATI even make 9700 Non-Pro's? From what I hear, it's possible only OEM's offered them...

    Yes, I do realize the only difference between both the 9700 & 9700 Pro is clock speeds only, however when you pay for a 9700 Pro and get a 9700, you start to ask questions.
  • GnomeWizarddGnomeWizardd Member 4 Life Akron, PA Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Hey Sim If i get my 9700pro wprking correctly I will be selling it And ill cut you a deal on it since you got ripped a new one and you have been sooo kind in helping me figure out that my agp texture acceleration id not wroking IF i get it working correctly I will sell it If not I will still sell it but it will be really cheap! lol . I think its might just be a driver issue or a windows issue. I will try and find out.
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    MediaMan: Some 9700 NPs have Hynix RAM, most have either 3.6 or 3.3ns Infineon RAM and a rare few have Samsung 2.8(6)ns RAM. Basically, if it isn't a Pro then it most likely has Infineon RAM, which in all situations, sucks for overclocking, barely reaching above its rated speed.

    NS
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    NightShade737 had this to say
    MediaMan: Some 9700 NPs have Hynix RAM, most have either 3.6 or 3.3ns Infineon RAM and a rare few have Samsung 2.8(6)ns RAM. Basically, if it isn't a Pro then it most likely has Infineon RAM, which in all situations, sucks for overclocking, barely reaching above its rated speed.NS

    Infineon barely reaches it's RATED speed.
    This crap Infineon 3.3 won't even make it to 290 MHz, yet it's rated for 303 MHz operation.

    POS.

    Sapphire's 9700NP's (Red & Black) usually carried Samsung's 2.86.

    Connect3D, Club3D and PowerColor carried Hynix 3.6, which usually pushed 335 MHz with the proper BIOS.

    The rest carried abysmal 3.3/3.6 Infineon. :(
  • GnomeWizarddGnomeWizardd Member 4 Life Akron, PA Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    hey sim I got it working right!!!! I will post a pic of my 3dmark scores and aquamark for all to see! I am not sure if i am gonna sell it still tho. I def will cut you and you only a deal if you want it
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    That was actually supposed to say "Barely reaching its rated speed".

    I have 3.6ns Infineon, but it is either good crap RAM, or down to the heatsinks I have installed on them, but they can actually reach 310mhz.

    NS
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    GnomeWizardd had this to say
    hey sim I got it working right!!!! I will post a pic of my 3dmark scores and aquamark for all to see! I am not sure if i am gonna sell it still tho. I def will cut you and you only a deal if you want it

    PM me what range of $$$ you're looking for. If I can't get this card to operate at proper speeds, I'll definately be interested in that 9700 Pro as a nice Christmas present to myself :D

    One last thing Gnome, could you run DXDIAG for me and post a screenshot of your "Display" tab information just for good measure? Thanks a bunch :)

    Maybe the device information on my card has been altered, but I don't have real 9700 Pro information to relate it to :)

    Thanks again and glad to know everything is back in order :)
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    May not prove anything though, here's my Radeon 9700 that thinks its a Pro...

    NS
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Which company manufactured your card NS?

    As well, could you quickly make a dump of your R9700 NP's BIOS and upload it to SM?

    Here's the link with instructions. :)
  • EnverexEnverex Worcester, UK Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    The original BIOS is long gone, it's just some Pro BIOS from the huge thread on Rage3D that I have modded for different speeds and some other carp so no real point.

    Cards made by some insanely named Asian company.... "Grandmars" I believe it was. No different from the "Made by ATi" card in any way though.

    NS
  • GnomeWizarddGnomeWizardd Member 4 Life Akron, PA Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    No Problem Sim !! here is a screenie for good measure!

    running sweet! Only reson i am gonna sell it now Is I have a good feeling ( dad leaked ) that for my christmas he is gonna get me a 9800Xt as long as i give him my 9600XT !!
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    Thank's Gnome. Looks like the information is the same between each card, and I would assume it would be the same, as the only difference between a 9700NP and 9700 Pro is clock speeds (and sometimes RAM)... :)
  • GnomeWizarddGnomeWizardd Member 4 Life Akron, PA Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Yea and my card IS a true 9700 pro from newegg. I know cause I was there when the guy ordered it
  • CammanCamman NEW! England Icrontian
    edited November 2003
    Heres a screenie from mine
    retail Built by ATi 9700 Pro from Best Buy

    (also wanted to post it cause check it out, our screenies (simguy) are almost identical! crazy, even the minutes and seconds, the hour was one off...weird coincedence tho)

    EDIT
    AHHHHH I just noticed me and gnomes times on the screenshots was identical!!!! craziness!

    edit again: oh wait, is that the time like the drive was produced? I must be an idiot
    ati.jpg 83.1K
  • SimGuySimGuy Ottawa, Canada
    edited November 2003
    LOL we must all be using Catalyst 3.7... that's the driver compile time :D

    Thanks for the input!! Heheheh :D
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