Update me!
GHoosdum
Icrontian
Apparently all the discussion about our D&D game goes on in IRC... can somebody update me as to what the current talk is about? I'm bored here at work and I keep refreshing this subforum, but there's nothing new! :sad2:
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[php][10:09] <CB> Haly Crap FG2 is awesome.
[10:09] <CB> FG was already really cool, FG2 is a bizzillion times cooler
[10:10] <CB> I has so many nice tools that will make keeping track of stuff so easy.
[10:10] <CB> The combat tracker alone is worth the cost.
[10:11] <CB> I just need to learn how to create modules...
[10:14] <prime|work> so far I hate it
[10:14] <prime|work> but we'll see
[10:15] <CB> Seriously, how could you hate it?
[10:15] * drasnor|nimbulan has joined #icrontic
[10:16] <CB> I can't even begin to describe how usefull the tools are for me.
[10:17] <prime|work> useful is one thing
[10:17] <prime|work> I can see how it can be useful
[10:17] <prime|work> but the interface is among the worst I've EVER seen in a windows app
[10:17] <prime|work> Utterly unintuitive
[10:17] <CB> It's non-standard, sure, but it's notthat bad.
[10:17] <prime|work> non-standard = bad
[10:17] <CB> It's just radial menus
[10:18] <CB> I have no issue with that at all.
[10:18] <prime|work> they went for aesthetics more than usability
[10:18] <prime|work> bad tradeoff, in my opinion
[10:18] <CB> In fact, I wish radial manus were the windows standard.
[10:18] <CB> No.
[10:18] <CB> The usability is a thousand times greater than iTabletop
[10:18] <prime|work> I never used itabletop
[10:18] <prime|work> I have no basis of comparison
[10:19] <CB> Just the combat tracker:
[10:19] <prime|work> This was my litmus test
[10:19] <prime|work> I tried to make a character sheet for kyle last night
[10:19] <CB> It allows me to tie a mini to an entry in the tracker.
[10:19] <prime|work> after 20 minutes we gave up, kyle almost in tears because we lost everything
[10:19] <prime|work> NO app, no matter what it does, should be that difficulyt
[10:19] <CB> It lets me advance the turns and notify the players to act with one button.
[10:20] <CB> It keeps track of the size of the creature, and it's reach, but highlighting those things on the grid when I hover over the entry.
[10:20] <prime|work> I'm sure it'll be fine once we all learn how to use it, but the point I'm trying to make is that we NEED to LEARN how to use it. The mark of a bad application. A good app is intuitive enough to jump in and use right away.
[10:20] <CB> It allows me to set conditions that automatically last a certain number of turns, either for that character or someone else.
[10:20] * prime|work sets mode: +v drasnor|nimbulan
[10:21] <CB> and that's all in adition to it's primary job of keeping track of initiative AC, HP and all other pertinant stats.
[10:21] <CB> It will be a monumental time/energy saver fo me.
[10:21] <prime|work> I'm not arguing against using it. We're all committed to it. I'm just bitching about it, cause it sucks from a user standpoint.
[10:21] <CB> I've found it very intuitive so far.
[10:21] <CB> I'm really not sure what's making it tough for others.
[10:22] <CB> Everything about how it works has made perfect sense to me.
[10:22] <CB> and everytime I see a new thing that it can do, I squeal like a little girl who found a kitten.
[10:22] <prime|work> Generally when you have an app that presents you with a blank screen with some dice on it, that's not really intuitive. You can figure out how to chop through things, but it's not, by definition, "intuitive". Meaning a kid or my mom could look at it and know what to do and where to go.
[10:23] <prime|work> I'm sure it's very full featured and awesome and swank
[10:23] <CB> It doesn't need to be that
[10:23] <prime|work> but it's NOT intuitive.
[10:23] <CB> All the buttons made sense to me, I was able to jump right in.
[10:23] <prime|work> It seems like it was designed by Indian outsourcing teams. As my Indian programmer friends always say, "The app is wery robust."
[10:24] <DogSoldier> YOUR MOMZ INTUITIVE!
[10:24] <CB> PArt of it is DM control...
[10:24] <prime|work> But they, as a race, SUCK at UI
[10:24] <pragtastic> No, she's robust.
[10:24] <CB> When you guys are in, I'll be cotroling most of what you see.
[10:24] <DogSoldier> lol
[10:24] <DogSoldier> ALL HAIL CB!!!
[10:24] <CB> I think the UI is perfect...
[10:24] * prime|work hails
[10:24] <CB> I guess we just don't see this the same way :/
[10:25] <prime|work> That's a huge shock
[10:25] <prime|work>
[10:25] <CB> however, since I'll be doing mst of the actual interaction with it (you guys will mostly be using it to get info from me, and to roll dice) that's okay.
[10:25] <CB> It's odd that Joe and I are the only ones who think it's the coolest program ever.
[10:26] <CB> And iTabletop wasn't even an option.
[10:26] <CB> It really was not just not intuitive.
[10:26] <prime|work> well the only conclusion that can be drawn from the data is that you and Crazy Joe are odd...
[10:26] <CB> It was counterintuitive.
[10:26] <CB> One example sums up how much it didn't work for me.
[10:26] <CB> In FG, I can add a mask to images.
[10:27] <CB> Then I can use the unmasking tool to slowly reveal the image to the players one piece at a time.
[10:27] <CB> That's one f it's simplest and best features.
[10:27] <CB> iTabletop had a similar feature.
[10:27] <prime|work> Did you add the Knowledge Warnings because you were afraid that one of us would not play our characters correctly?
[10:28] <CB> except instead of placing a mask, and slowy removing user-defined chunks...
[10:28] <prime|work> Also: Why no 3rd class for multiclassing?
[10:28] <CB> The DM had to build the mask out of rectangles and delete those rectangles one-by-one.
[10:28] <CB> That issue alone would have kept me from iTabletop, but all of it's features were similarly stupid.
[10:29] <CB> I added Knowledge warnings primaryily for Joe.
[10:29] <prime|work> I figured
[10:29] <CB> It's not a restriction, it's a save.
[10:29] <CB> If I say, you open the door to darkeness beyond...
[10:30] <CB> and Joe says "I run in screaming with my sword over my head"
[10:30] <CB> It give me the chance to say "I think your character would check to make sure that the the room is not one big pit first"
[10:30] <CB> instead of killing Joe's character
[10:31] <CB> although it's not just for Je.
[10:31] <pragtastic> just put a trampoline at the bottom.
[10:31] <CB> He's just the one I see most likely needing it.
[10:31] <CB> The second part of the rule only applys to situations when the player tries to use info that the character doesn't have.
[10:32] <CB> I don't forsee needing to stop that stuff often, but I ant to let everyone know that I reserve the right to.
[10:33] <CB> You might know that the only way to dfeat the great Bolith of Jag is to doue him with a healing potion, but if you try to do it, I might make you justif why your character would know to do that.
[10:35] <prime|work> i shouldn't be so casual with the technicians here
[10:35] <prime|work> The Ikon tech is here
[10:35] <prime|work> his name is Steve
[10:35] <prime|work> and I just blurted out to him (I don't know what causes me to do this)
[10:36] <prime|work> "Steve, just remember. There IS no anonymity on the internet. I HAVE seen pictures of you blowing your dog."
[10:36] <CB> nice.
[10:36] <prime|work> I guess I just like shock value
[10:36] <prime|work> It was hilarious, to be sure. Keebs loled
[10:37] <prime|work> Steve turned around like a deer in headlights
[10:37] <prime|work> So anyways
[10:37] <prime|work> what about the restricted multiclassing: What's the reason behind that?
[10:37] <prime|work> That severly restricts Prestige classing
[10:38] <prime|work> Some prestige classes require levels in 2 classes to begin with. Saying no third class basically eliminates the ability to be many of the prestige classes.
[10:38] <prime|work> For example, the Thaumaturgist requires levels in both cleric and wizard
[10:38] <prime|work> so you are basically saying "sorry, you just can't be a Thaumaturgist"
[10:38] <prime|work> Which is lame, in my opinion.
[10:38] <CB> I haven't presented any prestige classes in this campaign.
[10:39] <prime|work> You stated that we were using the rules from the PHB. There are many prestige classes in the PHB.
[10:39] <CB> Basically, it's because I think third classing it stupid.
[10:39] <prime|work> So you probably need to clarify that ASAP
[10:39] <CB> Most prestige classes require you to join spcific organizations.
[10:39] <prime|work> That's not really true
[10:39] <CB> None of which exist
[10:39] <prime|work> A few do
[10:39] <prime|work> but not most
[10:40] <prime|work> For example, it makes perfect sense for you to say "there is no Thay, so you can't really be a Red Wizard."
[10:40] <CB> I guess I need to reread the section on prestige classes.
[10:40] <prime|work> I think you do.
[10:40] <CB> I really don't like them.
[10:40] <prime|work> Players really DO like them. They're fun. And they offer a vast amount of variety and upgrade options.
[10:40] <CB> and it didn't seem to me from the rules that they were included by defalt.
[10:41] <prime|work> They are.
[10:41] <CB> It seemed to read as 'add his to your campain if you want'
[10:41] <prime|work> Prestige classes really add a level of realism to the game
[10:41] <CB> They are not even in the PHB.
[10:42] <CB> I was thinking of amybe adding some setting based prestige classes later in the campaign...
[10:42] <CB> Players shouldn't even think of them as an option unless the DM brings them outof his book.
[10:42] <prime|work> Because for years, many people said "Why CAN'T my wizard take up the bow as a hobby, and then decide he really loves it, and focuses on getting good with it" - thus was born the Arcane Archer
[10:43] <prime|work> for example
[10:43] <CB> What's wrong with just dual classing Wizard, Archer.
[10:43] <CB> ?
[10:44] <prime|work> I have plans for my character that involve a specific prestige class, that fits in with his background and personality. And your rule, based on something arbitrary like "I think it's stupid", ruins that for me, which makes me want to rethink my entire character
[10:44] <prime|work> There's no such class as "archer", first of all
[10:44] <prime|work> Maybe you don't get how prestige classing works
[10:44] <CB> I do get it, and I'm looking at it again now.
[10:45] <CB> As I thought it specifically says that Prestige classes are only available if I presen them in-story to the characters.
[10:46] <CB> Then it gives six examples of prestige classes that I might want to use.
[10:46] <DogSoldier> Reading this is like watching a slow motion fight
[10:46] <CB> That doesn't seem like default rules to me.
[10:46] <prime|work> basically if we're going to butt heads on this, I'm going to have to rethink my entire character. Of course it's your campaign and I am choosing to play in it, but I think you should evaluate the options available to players that make the game even more fun for us (Primary rule 1 for DMs: the game is supposed to be fun for the players), and try not to shut things down just because "you think it's stupid"
[10:46] <DogSoldier> Why don't you guys just take it out back. Last man standing wins
[10:46] <prime|work> CB is bigger than me
[10:46] <prime|work> He'd probably beat me up
[10:47] <prime|work> I'm a little guy
[10:47] <CB> I know how to DM Brian.
[10:47] <DogSoldier> Doesn't matter, you have nicer hair
[10:47] <prime|work> oooh burn
[10:47] <CB> I know the idea is about enjoying the game.
[10:47] * jared^ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
[10:48] <CB> In this case, I was going by the DMG which says that I MAY choose to present some prestige classes to characters once they're already established in the campaign.
[10:48] <CB> The way t reads, characters should not know which prestige classes are available to them right from the beginning.
[10:48] <CB> They have to find-out about the rganizations, ad special skill in-world
[10:48] <prime|work> If I put myself in character, though.... What I want to do makes perfect sense for my character
[10:49] <prime|work> Even at this early stage. Right now, it's a pull, a wanderlust, some vague sense of something bigger out there.
[10:49] <CB> and I may react to that, and create a prestige class for him at some future point in the story.
[10:49] <prime|work> Let's just go to fisticuffs and get this over with.
[10:49] * prime|work rolls up his sleeves
[10:49] * prime|work has no sleeves
[10:50] <prime|work> dammit
[10:50] <DogSoldier> FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!
[10:50] <prime|work> Actually I'm wearing a short-sleeve shirt today
[10:50] <prime|work> so rolling them up is pretty ineffective
[10:50] <DogSoldier> roll up ur pantlegs then
[10:50] <CB> The DMG recomends specifically introducing prestige classes when I see that a particular character wants to do stuff that his class can't already do...
[10:52] * CB_ has joined #icrontic
[10:52] <CB_> stoopid connection.
[10:53] <CB_> I think that third classing makes the characters unverisimilarly versitile.
[10:53] <CB_> The world seems to be set up, that each person has distinct roles and skills, much more so than the real world.
[10:53] <CB_> forcing them to play certain roles in combat, and negotiation, etc
[10:54] <CB_> adding a second and third clas to your character doesn't fit that model anymore..
[/php]
Wouldn't planning your character around a future prestige class be the use of information your character has but your player does not?
Prestige classes are classes that can be specifically tailored to fit your character's personality and goals. For example, a wizard who was always fascinated with archery and began researching magical enhancements to the skill and art would find great success as an Arcane Archer, eventually forgoing the need to create physical arrows, or performing incredible feats with a bow by enhancing her skill with magic.
There are a million stories and a million characters. I feel like you don't do justice to a powerful character who has been through so much by cramming them into a restrictive "class" based on arbitrary rules. "I am a cleric" the end. What if you're a priest who is fascinated with martial arts? Just because you're "always and only ever a cleric" means you can't roleplay the character to be fascinated with martial arts?
I don't think it hurts for players to set a future goal for their character that's based purely on extra-story information.
Wizard + Barbarian = ?
Wizard + Barbarian as a prestige class could be something like an Arcane Fanatic (wizard with barbarian tendencies), or a Berserker Adept (barbarian with magical tendencies).
A prestige class is another class that grants you abilities no other class can do, at the expense of being more generalized. You're cut off from advancing in the more general progression of your base class. Your BAB, ref, fort, will, init and the like won't progress as uniformly any more. You may sacrifice many skill points per level and add a ton of feats, or vice versa.
In the end, you become a specialist. No one else can do what you do without that prestige class, even if they were level 40.
I've reviewed the rules and arguments for Prestige classes, and this is what I think is best for this group.
Everyone starts a campaign at an early level. Levels 3-7, where you're green to the world and pretty much a complete friggin' noob. You feel "Crammed" into a class because you're trying to impart knowledge and experience over your character that he wouldn't have. <i>You</i> may know about all these neat NPCs, skills, feats and geographical areas, but why would a fresh adventurer know anything about it?
It's a notion called "Meta-gaming." It's implying that your character knows what you know, when that's not the case. D&D has rules for characters up to level 50 (Or higher). At that point you have had so much time to experience the world and understand what's going on that your character's potential is effectively limitless.
Using multiple base-classes explains a change of heart, profession, mindset or career in a character. A prestige class (You can take several) represent a mastery of a skill.
But that's power-gaming vs. story-telling for you.
I can only shoot for 'most of the people most of the time'. Not every decision will please everyone. Sometimes I'll be wrong about what's best for the group (I'm only human), but we'll roll with it and have fun anyway.
I make my decisions based on what I think the group as a majority will enjoy most. It looks to me like at least four of the six players are 'mostly story and exploration' players, and I think the way I've presented multi-classing in The Book of the Isles is best for this campaign.
You're wrong in thinking you have 'no say'. I do listen to my players, but I cannot please all of them with every decision, and if I changed the rules everytime one player showed a preference for something else, I'd be a very bad DM. I know some of you have experience running your own games, and have your own ideas about what works best, but you're not the DM this time, and if you can't trust that I'm making the decisions that are best for the group, then this whole thing will fail.
Did you even read what I wrote into The Book today? Prestige classes will be exempt from the no third class rule (really I just don't want any fighter/rogue/sorcerers or whatever, I don't think that makes sense even from a game standpoint, much less a story standpoint), but you have to wait for me to present them to you. I think that's fair, and it adds the fun of discovery to the game for some other players. Don't worry. I'll be putting things in for you to have fun with as well, and the more we play, the more I'll be able to mold the campaign around the player's ideas of what is entertaining.