Computer with no spyware - endless reboot loop

edited November 2008 in Science & Tech
Here is my previous thread under Spyware Removal:

http://http://icrontic.com/forum/showthread.php?p=649242&posted=1#post649242


Katana has referred me to this area for further assistance. I appreciate any additional help that may be offered.

Thank you in advance for your time.
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Comments

  • jaredjared College Station, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    Hi, Michelle. Let's see if we can't solve your issue now that our spyware team has given you a clean bill of health.

    As you did, I suspect that memory may be to blame. I'm going to ask that you follow this guide on downloading and running Memtest. I'd like to reiterate that even one error means that your memory needs to be replaced.

    Secondly, I'm curious to know if that machine has had its copy of Windows reloaded from scratch any time during its eight years?
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    Hi, Michelle. Let's see if we can't solve your issue now that our spyware team has given you a clean bill of health.

    As you did, I suspect that memory may be to blame. I'm going to ask that you follow this guide on downloading and running Memtest. I'd like to reiterate that even one error means that your memory needs to be replaced.

    Secondly, I'm curious to know if that machine has had its copy of Windows reloaded from scratch any time during its eight years?

    I just had to do a complete restore probably 2 months ago for other issues, my Mcafee wouldn't open and I went through advanced support through them and it resulted in my having to do a restore. Also, I believe YEARS and YEARS ago I may have had to do a restore as well.

    I tried doing this memtest prior to posting any threads on here. I was browsing your forum and found it. I can't figure out to to run it. I do not have a floppy. I installed it on a flash drive, but what happens from that point? I was confused and never went further with it.

    ETA: Also, do I need to do what Katana said in the last post about deleting the Combofix that was quarantined first? I haven't made it to that yet as I am on my laptop right now. Thank you!
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    You can download the ISO version from the Memtest site and get it onto a CD that will boot just like a floppy by following this little guide.
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    You can download the ISO version from the Memtest site and get it onto a CD that will boot just like a floppy by following this little guide.

    Working on the Memtest. So far 5 have passed and 0 errors, will update once it is complete.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    If it says PASSES: 1 or better, and there are no errors, it looks like your memory is good! That's a good thing. You can go ahead and stop memtest now.

    Next thing I'd like you to do is burn another ISO containing Seatools for DOS. Using this utility, perform the "extended test" when SeaTools is fully booted.

    SeaTools will scan your hard drive for errors which are called bad sectors, or physical deformities in the storage material on your hard drive. Just like memory, even one error here signifies that the device will need to be replaced. If it comes to that, though, there are plenty of ways to back up all your information so you don't lose it when you replace the drive.
  • edited October 2008
    It says Short test, long test or acoustic in the drop down... I assume "long test?"
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    Correct. :)
  • edited October 2008
    ok, it is scanning now. Does it tell me if there are errors once the scan is complete?
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    If I recall correctly, Seatools for DOS has two panes stacked on top of one another. The top pane is the test progress, and the bottom pane is the error log. Errors should come up on the bottom in real time as the scan progresses. Depending on the size of your hard drive, it could take up to a few hours for the scan to finish.
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    If I recall correctly, Seatools for DOS has two panes stacked on top of one another. The top pane is the test progress, and the bottom pane is the error log. Errors should come up on the bottom in real time as the scan progresses. Depending on the size of your hard drive, it could take up to a few hours for the scan to finish.


    Ok...test is done and it passed.
  • phuschnickensphuschnickens Beverly Hills, Michigan Member
    edited October 2008
    Keep following thrax advice.... but sidenote: not sure if when you say "restore" you mean format and reinstall, but they are vastly different... even a repair install doesn't accomplish what a format and reinstall does. I strongly recommend a re-installation from the sounds of things... Unless I'm missing something it has to be software... cannot be hardware and if you haven't done a re-installation in a while (or ever)... it's time. As mention, you can keep all of your data.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    Yes, this was going to be my next question:

    When you said "restore," what process did you follow to do this?

    Did you reload the machine with factory CDs, thus clearing all information from the machine?
    Perform a Windows repair install?

    etc.
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    Yes, this was going to be my next question:

    When you said "restore," what process did you follow to do this?

    Did you reload the machine with factory CDs, thus clearing all information from the machine?
    Perform a Windows repair install?

    etc.

    Both times I have done the "restore" I have loaded the CD provided by the manufacturer bringing it back to factory settings, thus wiping out all my files.

    Currently I don't have much of anything on there, because two months ago when I "restored" it I lost all files, my resumes (which sucked), etc. Everything but pics because luckily I backed those up. So right now, backing up my data is not an issue for me because there really isn't much on there.

    So are you guys saying there is something else I can do, that I haven't already done???? Please say there is :confused:
  • edited October 2008
    I just wanted to add.... thank you soooooooo much for all the help so far. You guys rock and I am so fortunate to have stumbled across this site!
  • phuschnickensphuschnickens Beverly Hills, Michigan Member
    edited October 2008
    I changed my mind... i mean... i guess it still could be a hardware issue... i have a complex giving advice alongside Thrax who probably could run circles around me with advice/wisdom, but what the hell? I guess a part could have gone bad... what happened a couple months ago that caused you to have to re-install? Possible the PSU isn't working right (I always say that)... i guess perhaps, maybe your video card? at what point exactly is it blue screening? depending where it is happening (if early enough in the booting of windows), it might be worth a "start windows with boot logging" (hit F8 before splash screen and select boot logging)... this could maybe determine what part of the boot exactly your computer is choking on. If it blue screens after the splash screen is done... maybe try to get in via safe mode and try disabling services from starting up automatically (via start > run > msconfig > startup).
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    The answer that I'm about to give is tremendously vague, but is the only honest answer:

    The 0x0000008E error is one of the most common errors Windows XP experiences and it has no definite cause. In fact, we have a four page thread on Icrontic about this very error, but the fix alleged to be definitive has only worked for a handful of people. Other people, with the very same problem, cannot get the issue solved because nobody can find an accurate solution.

    In this case, the only true fix is to restore that computer back to manufacturer defaults and get it all updated. It's nothing you did wrong, it just happens and nobody is sure why.
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    The answer that I'm about to give is tremendously vague, but is the only honest answer:

    The 0x0000008E error is one of the most common errors Windows XP experiences and it has no definite cause. In fact, we have a four page thread on Icrontic about this very error, but the fix alleged to be definitive has only worked for a handful of people. Other people, with the very same problem, cannot get the issue solved because nobody can find an accurate solution.

    In this case, the only true fix is to restore that computer back to manufacturer defaults and get it all updated. It's nothing you did wrong, it just happens and nobody is sure why.

    If this helps at all... I noticed that when we tried turning it on earlier, the blue screen error codes that is in parenthesis were different then what I initially posted.

    Here's the problem... I turn it on, it loads, I go to do something or even leave it idle for a moment and it shuts off and goes to the blue screen. I did change some things from "start up" like 2 days prior to this crash, but it worked for well 2 days without issue. Not sure if that makes a difference.

    The problem before was... we have cox and they offer a security suite powered by Mcafee.. it would run a scan, install updates then say I need to reboot, I reboot then windows would say I would update and say I needed to reboot, I reboot and the process would keep going over and over again. I went all the way through the Mcafee advanced support and got to the point where my mouse wouldn't even work anymore, resulting in my having to do the restore CD.

    So... after hearing all that... is my only resort the restore? And if so, will this correct the issue you think completely? Or could I have issues again a month from now?
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    The numbers in parentheses point to different locations in your system memory where the error occurred. Beyond the initial set of 0x08E numbers, the rest are generally of little help in tracking down the error. The blue screen occurs randomly due to the right combination of events aligning to trigger a blue screen are occurring at, well, random. :)

    I cannot overstate how pervasive this issue is. It's the single most common blue screen for Windows, and nobody has ever found the damn cause or solution for it. It's extremely annoying for users who have it and solution providers who are trying to troubleshoot it. I would say that it, however, is unrelated to your previous issues with McAfee which was probably caused by McAfee being a notoriously buggy program.

    I am fairly confident in saying reloading would resolve your current issue, though I can't say you won't have a problem down the line because I can't know what will happen to your PC by then.

    If you really want to go ahead with a reload, we can get all your information backed up and safe for very cheaply.
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    The numbers in parentheses point to different locations in your system memory where the error occurred. Beyond the initial set of 0x08E numbers, the rest are generally of little help in tracking down the error. The blue screen occurs randomly due to the right combination of events aligning to trigger a blue screen are occurring at, well, random. :)

    I cannot overstate how pervasive this issue is. It's the single most common blue screen for Windows, and nobody has ever found the damn cause or solution for it. It's extremely annoying for users who have it and solution providers who are trying to troubleshoot it. I would say that it, however, is unrelated to your previous issues with McAfee which was probably caused by McAfee being a notoriously buggy program.

    I am fairly confident in saying reloading would resolve your current issue, though I can't say you won't have a problem down the line because I can't know what will happen to your PC by then.

    If you really want to go ahead with a reload, we can get all your information backed up and safe for very cheaply.

    When you say reload... are you talking doing the same thing I did before with the CD from the Manufacturer?

    How does it work to back up the system? How involved? And is that necessary if I really don't have a bunch of files on there that I need? Could I just do the reload and that's it?

    TIA
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    Yes, you'd use the CD from the manufacturer to reset the computer back to it's fresh-out-of-the-box state. If you really don't have anything to back up and aren't worried about your data, you can just go ahead and restore the machine.

    The process involves removing the hard drive from your computer and connecting it to another one with an adapter that allows you to plug it into a USB port like a camera. The adapter runs about $25.
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    Yes, you'd use the CD from the manufacturer to reset the computer back to it's fresh-out-of-the-box state. If you really don't have anything to back up and aren't worried about your data, you can just go ahead and restore the machine.

    The process involves removing the hard drive from your computer and connecting it to another one with an adapter that allows you to plug it into a USB port like a camera. The adapter runs about $25.

    I wish I would have known about that prior to my restore a few months ago. That would have saved me so much headache.

    OK. I will try the restore, probably Thursday as I am jammed tomorrow.

    I really appreciate your help. I will update once the restore is complete.

    Do you recommend that I don't use the "free" security software through Cox which is powered by McAfee? I noticed you said McAfee is notorious for being "buggy."

    Are there any "free" ones out there that are safe and effective that you know of?
  • pigflipperpigflipper The Forgotten Coast Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    Heat?
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    I always strongly recommend that people don't use the security software provided by their ISP. Not only is the base software usually very resource-hungry, but it's typically not that good either. Given that ISPs are paid millions to bundle the security software as a form of advertising, it has always seemed to me that it's done in the interest of money, not your security. That said, there are many free solutions that are both safe <i>and</i> more effective than McAfee.

    The first I recommend is Avast! Home Edition and the second is Avira AntiVir Personal.

    A good head-to-head review that includes these (and a few other options) can be found here. If it came down to personal choice, I would run with Avira because I like the interface much better.

    Let us know how your restore goes. After that we can help you finish off updates, get the AV installed if you run into any hitches, and do some preventative maintenance that should reduce the chance for future errors.

    Cheers!

    //EDIT: Pigflipper makes a good point. While we've run some stressful tests on the machine, heat may still be a culprit. Heat wreaks havoc on the performance and stability of a machine, just like an engine would go ballistic if it were actually overheating. Before we got the last step and reformat, open the case to your computer and place a fan next to the machine that's blowing into the case. See if the PC is stable after this point, or if it continues to lock up. If it's suddenly stable, we can identify the cause of the overheating and fix it quickly.
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    I always strongly recommend that people don't use the security software provided by their ISP. Not only is the base software usually very resource-hungry, but it's typically not that good either. Given that ISPs are paid millions to bundle the security software as a form of advertising, it has always seemed to me that it's done in the interest of money, not your security. That said, there are many free solutions that are both safe and more effective than McAfee.

    The first I recommend is Avast! Home Edition and the second is Avira AntiVir Personal.

    A good head-to-head review that includes these (and a few other options) can be found here. If it came down to personal choice, I would run with Avira because I like the interface much better.

    Let us know how your restore goes. After that we can help you finish off updates, get the AV installed if you run into any hitches, and do some preventative maintenance that should reduce the chance for future errors.

    Cheers!

    //EDIT: Pigflipper makes a good point. While we've run some stressful tests on the machine, heat may still be a culprit. Heat wreaks havoc on the performance and stability of a machine, just like an engine would go ballistic if it were actually overheating. Before we got the last step and reformat, open the case to your computer and place a fan next to the machine that's blowing into the case. See if the PC is stable after this point, or if it continues to lock up. If it's suddenly stable, we can identify the cause of the overheating and fix it quickly.


    I will try the fan... and then the restore if need be. Could this be a problem after 8 years? Granted I live in Vegas and yes it is hot here... but why wouldn't this have posed a problem before?

    I will definitely touch base on Thursday and let you know where I am at. And will certainly be looking for your input on how to get updates, and preventative maintenance. I appreciate your insight on the security software.

    Thanks again and have a great night! :smiles:
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    Computers have a ridiculous penchant for attracting dust, dirt, pet hair, and any other small bits of refuse that can be kicked about with a light breeze. A computer's case is a constant source of moving air that, while light to you, is actually pretty strong to the normal dust of a home. If you've never cleaned the interior of the computer before, you may be surprised at what you find.

    Or maybe not! I've seen decade-old computers that are simply pristine with nary a dusting. Who knows until you look? :D
  • edited October 2008
    Thrax wrote:
    Computers have a ridiculous penchant for attracting dust, dirt, pet hair, and any other small bits of refuse that can be kicked about with a light breeze. A computer's case is a constant source of moving air that, while light to you, is actually pretty strong to the normal dust of a home. If you've never cleaned the interior of the computer before, you may be surprised at what you find.

    Or maybe not! I've seen decade-old computers that are simply pristine with nary a dusting. Who knows until you look? :D

    Ok.. wait...I thought we were talking heat? So it could be dust too? You lost me... break this down for me as it very well could be dust. I have two dogs, and a dusty house since I live in the desert. ;)

    How do I do this? Is there just screws that we take off the back? Do I need to air dust in there? I don't want to screw things up more by doing something I shouldn't.

    Sorry, please excuse my ignorance here.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited October 2008
    Ah, sorry about the disconnect.

    Your computer's chassis, the case, is the result of plastic and metal pieces bonded together with screws and rivets. As you probably know, screws and rivets don't make a complete seal; this type of bonding leaves paper-thin cracks and slots all over the place.

    The interior of that case is cooled by a series of fans which are designed to draw air into and through the interior. While the suction of the fans would probably be undetectable if you put your hands near the the various slits, slots and cracks in the case, it's a lot of suction power for the dirt and dust that kicks around a home. As a result, that dirt is drawn like a magnet to the suction of the case that's just trying to move fresh (and dusty!) air through itself so it can keep the internal temperature as close to room temperature as possible.

    Dust, dirt, pet dander and hair can have three effects on the environment inside a case:
    • The dust creates an insulating film along the surface of all the electronics. The dust makes it hard for the components to breathe, to radiate the heat they produce as a result of using electricity.
    • Your PC's processor, the brain of a system, would burn itself up if not for a block of metal called a heatsink. The heatsink directly touches the processor and radiates the heat inducted into the metal through a series of machined fins which are (usually) blown on by a fan. Some processors don't require a fan directly blowing on the heatsink, but there must be a fan somewhere that's used to cool this metal down. Just as with the other electronic components, the heatsink's ability to move heat away from the processor is impacted by an insulating film of dust and hair.
    • Lastly, there are usually two or three fans in an off-the-shelf system such as yours. One draws cool air in from the bottom front, one blows directly on the processor, and one exhales hot air out the top rear. The lower front one is optional for cooler-running machines. In the event that these fans are clogged with eight years of dirt, dust and pet hair, their ability to expel hot air from the case can be significantly stunted.

    So, all of this is to say that dust and dirt hampers the computer's ability to radiate the heat it generates. Maybe the fans aren't working quite as well as they used to, maybe the heatsink is covered in dust, or maybe there's just a general malaise of dust in the case. All of these raise the case's internal temperature and, more importantly, cause the processor to run warmer than it likes to run.

    A hot-running processor is an unhappy processor! Excess heat hampers with the processor's ability to process the billions of mathematical computations per second that make a computer tick. Just like you or I would be pretty grumpy about doing mathematics in a sweltering sauna, the computer feels the same way. More technically, the heat causes the processor to make errors in its computations which can result in the errors that you're seeing.

    Typically there is a sliding panel that covers the left side of the case if you're staring at the front where the power button is. There are a series of 2-3 screws at the rear of the case that hold this panel in place. If you undo those three screws and slide the panel to your left when staring at the previously-mentioned left side of the case, you should be able to reveal the internal components. Don't worry about hurting anything when you're doing this, as computers are far more durable than most imagine.

    If you could take pictures of the front, side and rear of the case, I can give you more specific instructions on how to dismantle the chassis. From there, it's just a matter of buying some compressed air from a place like Office Max or Best Buy and blowing out the interior until no more dust comes out.

    But if it's not dirty, it's reload time.
  • edited October 2008
    Sounds like a plan. I will try to get that opened up tomorrow sometime and clean it out. If I encounter problems, I will indeed upload pics.

    Thank you so much for being so detailed and helpful. I will update tomorrow sometime on my progress.

    I love this site. You guys are my new BFF! :bigggrin:
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