Well there have been times where a machine hasnt turned in WUs for weeks and we have gotten no reply from the host. I got so fed up with that I was ready to take a road trip to the person's house and knock on their door, spend the night in my car across the street and wait if I had to. Well with this nice piece of paper that the host and his legal guardian would have to sign they would have to give it to me. The parent would know about such a thing (their kid being a host) and thus would not think I was some crazy person from the street.
We spend a lot of time and effort to get these machines going and when they are not producing we get quite annoyed.
Plenty of parents are unlikely to sign such a contract on their kids' behalf - it just means that the rigs will go to more responsible individuals who are less likely to steal an outdated PC. It also means you're less likely to have to sleep in your car at the host's house!
If they wont sign it on their behalf then they wont get it. We have been talking about this for awhile and the last machine got sent out w/o a signature. Things are still being worked out as to who is actually going to OWN the machines and some other legal issues.
why don't you guys just send em all to sarcnet HQ and take up a a fund to help pay for the added electricity? that way you know where the machines are and if they don't send in WUs you can kick prime's @ss when you meet him at the LAN.
GnomeWizardd had this to say I dont mean to sound mean by saying this but maybe dedication to the site/team HAS to be a requirement maybe atleast 6 months?
I would say 8 months, plus being a respected member of the community AND that they have been folding for a long time and have shown dedication to it.
We do take all those qualities into factor when choosing a host.
Current hosts will be signing a contract as well as new hosts.
Kanez: That would defeat the point of the SMx project pretty much and I dont think we would be able to keep paying for electricity for 20 machines currently. Thats a huge burden on Brian to keep 20 potentially volital machines up and running. Part of the hosts doantion is paying for electricity which they should take into consideration when applying.
What I would like to do but I know its not really feasible is to allow me to connect to the SMx machine through EM3. When one is down I will know instantly and can contact the host and crack the whip.;) Its something every host should have on their computer. I do and its so easy to set up.
I can do it across the network in my apt so I assume if you can VPN across the internet in the same manner to a shared folder I would think EM3 could see it as well since EM3 can see network places.
I go play Axis and Allies for a couple hours and my little post became a novel...
The committee does look at length of time on the site seriously when making a decision. We just don't say "X number of months" because then it's like "oh, this person is 5 days shy of the last month..." and it's just a bunch of technicalities and tallies we don't need to deal with. We know about how long they've been around.
Every issue that's been mentioned about the contract so far has been previously discussed by the staff and we still feel it is best to move forward with it. Remember - if they choose to challenge, that's more they gotta pay when they get shot down in court (not that I'd ever expect it to come to that).
We are also collecting addresses and phone numbers, btw (have been for a while now).
I truthfully think that IF someone runs off with the SMX machine and gives you the fingure we should hunt them down and shove Pineapples up thier butt! ( gotta love South Park! )
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Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited December 2003
AS far as selection. Time alone, and participation, should count. But helping by giving parts should also be weighed, as parts given toward a box were paid for somehow. It looks like many of the parts are coming in free to team, this is good.
BTW, I will be giving parts, but cannot afford electricity or would have three personal ID boxes folding now. I have a router, know boxes and networking, could sign a contract as an adult, but simply due to medical bills for vision fixes and costs of starting a business am out of extra marginal cost funds like running another 350W box 24\7 and a UPS for same and cost for removing heat from same 7-8 months of the year. Otherwise, would throw my hat in ring also. I do have two more ports open on my firewalled router, but electricity is hyper-expensive in Florida all year round and climbing upward year by year. I run about 8 amps real draw of gear 24\6.9 now, on average-- and that does not include AC costs.
Prime, what legal costs would be involved in establishing a trust run by two or more adults(formal trusttees) and several minors under their supervision (delegated duties) doing core leadership with the trustees' guidance??? I would trust you as one, Shorty or MediaMan as one also.
Would be willing to serve down the line myself if wanted, but that is up to you who are in reality making all this possible with a considerable investment (site, site assets, moderating things, defining needed rules, maintaining server and DB, upgrading site software, paying for hosting, etc.-- with no HQ, no team of this caliber could survive). One reason, look at a trust or non-profit corp set up with trust mgmnt to get tax refund\charity benefits for parts givers, and you would get more parts that way that are better in quality. I know I could afford to give more that way.
I make this public to see what the potential givers and potential and current hosts think, most of the current hosts are involved in other very valuable ways here also.
mmonnin had this to say What I would like to do but I know its not really feasible is to allow me to connect to the SMx machine through EM3. When one is down I will know instantly and can contact the host and crack the whip.;) Its something every host should have on their computer. I do and its so easy to set up.
Realistically, are you going to be checking those hosts every hour of every day? No. You are going to check them a couple of times a month, maybe a couple per week for new hosts. So why not just bookmark the detailed Stats page for each SMx host, and check them instead? Gives you a better idea of weekly WU production anyways. That way, you don't have to walk everyone through setting up their router for EM3 remote access, and the hosts do not have to open a port on their LAN that can potentially expose them to some serious problems.
While I would happily host as many SMx machines as I possibly could ( i don't pay for electricity ), it comes down to a matter of physical space restraints (unless people want to send me 1U rackmount cases).
But if we start casing these things in 1U rackmounts, I'm your man. I can host probably 50-100 1U boxes if I had to And hell, you can put duallys in a 1U now, for double the folding power
Let's wait until I move out of detroit first. No point in sending me parts just for the crackheads to take and turn into rocks
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BuiesCreek847In a van, down by the river, NCIcrontian
edited December 2003
I imagine part of a prospective hosts background check would include Heatware.
One could always slam said Heat if things went really bad. Perhaps as an attention getting tool. Seems one might be able to edit it should it have only been a "Mis-understanding"
BuiesCreek847 had this to say I imagine part of a prospective hosts background check would include Heatware.
One could always slam said Heat if things went really bad. Perhaps as an attention getting tool. Seems one might be able to edit it should it have only been a "Mis-understanding"
. . . . . . . . . . .
Which only applies to a fraction of the folders here. I don't use Heatware, I don't trade parts online that much. Would that automatically disqualify me?
I'm not an "SMx project member" so maybe my opinion in this means little, but here goes anyway.
While I don't agree that the machines value is "$100" or around there, I really think saying "pieces of equipment worth thousands of dollars" sounds like trying to make something a bigger deal than it is. Yes, they are worth several hundred dollars, some more and some less, but I think putting a "legal team" on the SMx project is a poor idea.
People are going to shy away from hosting a box if they have to sign some piece of paper that says "THIS BOX WILL FOLD 24/7 OR WE'RE GOING TO TAKE LEGAL ACTION" and yes I know that's over dramatic, and I know people can take vacations and turn them off, etc, but that's basically what you're saying. I understand that it does no good for the team to have people take boxes and then not fold with them and never hear from them again, but it also does no good for the team to have people not want to worry about legal issues involved with hosting a machine and therfore not hosting one.
Remember - if they choose to challenge, that's more they gotta pay when they get shot down in court
I think this especially holds true when we see team leaders making statements like that. This isn't a personal attack on you, but, it just seems like a rather drastic statement to make, makes it seem like the whole legal idea is getting off on the wrong foot to have such an aggressive "we're gonna get you if you mess up" attitude.
primesuspect had this to say Well then what do you suggest we do to recover stolen equipment, Camman?
Funny that everyone uses the word "donate" when supplying parts to the SMx machines and then you call it 'recovering stolen equipment' ?? how can this be? I know that you're not "donating" this equipment to the people who are hosting the machines and it's to the team, just seems to me that most people who are supporting this are having a pretty agressive stance about it. Might affect people who were thinking about hosting machines is all I was saying, no need for personal attack through sarcasm.
but anyway, I was just providing my thoughts on this, I dont host an SMx box, I havent donated any parts and I havent given the team any money, so, my point is moot.
I'm not attacking you at all, you should know me well enough to know that.
I'm seriously asking your opinion. I am somewhat in agreement with you - legal action is too harsh. But I honestly can't think of a better way to recover stolen equipment. Yes, it is stolen - the people who donated, myself for example, have a certain expectation. I sent a case to a host. It was brand new, not top of the line, but a little bit of money, especially with shipping. Do you think I want that case to go to some dude who's just gonna walk off with it? No way. I would consider that stealing. I gave that case to the team so that we could have another folding computer. If someone took it and used it for a different purpose, and I wanted it back, and was ignored and rebuffed, I would DEFINITELY consider that stealing.
So, no personal attacks intended, I'm asking honestly: What do you recommend?
Well, I am curious which boxes now are presumably stolen (not returning work units, no contact from box hosts), I was under the impress they were all of the Icrontic series? If they are, I think maybe the whole site change and everything maybe had something to do with it?
I mean maybe these people weren't aware of the change and stopped visiting Icrontic and when it wasn't there for a while they just said "eh, must be gone" or do you know for a fact they are intentionally not returning your equipment and/or ignoring your attempts at contacting them?
SMx machines are not given for personal ownership.
The host is essentially borrowing them, knowing the costs incurred for electricity.
Just like a book from the library, if it isn't returned when it needs to be, and doesn't return under subsequent threats of collection etcetera, it's now stolen.
Brings back memories of FoldingAddict and his red uniform....
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2003
I don't trade parts online that much. Would that automatically disqualify me?
No.
Some general points:
As the complexity of the Short-Media Donated Folding@Home Computer project ("SMX") has grown, so have the restrictions governing hosting the the SMX rigs. Why? As it has turned out, the great majority of the SMX recipients have been completely honorable, faithful, and diligent with maintain their Team Short-Media owned equipment.
The main purpose for a host to sign a legal agreement with the Team/Short-Media Web owners is to impress upon the candidate host the purpose of hosting, and the objective requirements of hosting. Would we (Team, Site, Site Owners - take your pick), go to court to recover an SMX machine? Probably not - but that's not really the point. The legal form is merely another tool in the chest to keep an ever expanding program running smoothly.
A gentlemens' agreement between the Team and host candidates, as it used to be, would be far preferable to our newly-added bureaucracy. Unfortunately, we can't rely anymore simply on one's word. Some of our hosts (10% or less!), have turned out to be less than mature and honorable.
Being on vacation, I haven't been able to follow this entire thread. I've seen most of the posts, but missed some. Anyway, I wouldn't mind signing a form agreeing to the fact that I don't own the machine: that it is Team Short-Media's. I understand where the people in charge are coming from, and I don't mind either way. Whatever you decide, that's fine with me.
Leonardo had this to say The main purpose for a host to sign a legal agreement with the Team/Short-Media Web owners is to impress upon the candidate host the purpose of hosting, and the objective requirements of hosting. Would we (Team, Site, Site Owners - take your pick), go to court to recover an SMX machine? Probably not - but that's not really the point. The legal form is merely another tool in the chest to keep an ever expanding program running smoothly.
A gentlemens' agreement between the Team and host candidates, as it used to be, would be far preferable to our newly-added bureaucracy. Unfortunately, we can't rely anymore simply on one's word. Some of our hosts (10% or less!), have turned out to be less than mature and honorable.
Whether you have a signed legal document or not, it is still a "gentlemen's agreement" since everyone has said legal action would not be taken to recover a "stolen" box.
Why have the names of the person(s) who have "stolen" SMx boxes not been published? (maybe they have) If it is truly team property, everyone on the team has a right to know who they are. Maybe someone on the team knows somebody who knows somebody who knows the "thief" and can get the box back.
That being said, signing a contract would not deter me from wanting to host a SMx box should I have the desire to do so.
Note: I'm not picking at you Leo. I'm just using what you said as an example.
Comments
We spend a lot of time and effort to get these machines going and when they are not producing we get quite annoyed.
I will do what it takes.:)
I would say 8 months, plus being a respected member of the community AND that they have been folding for a long time and have shown dedication to it.
Current hosts will be signing a contract as well as new hosts.
Kanez: That would defeat the point of the SMx project pretty much and I dont think we would be able to keep paying for electricity for 20 machines currently. Thats a huge burden on Brian to keep 20 potentially volital machines up and running. Part of the hosts doantion is paying for electricity which they should take into consideration when applying.
What I would like to do but I know its not really feasible is to allow me to connect to the SMx machine through EM3. When one is down I will know instantly and can contact the host and crack the whip.;) Its something every host should have on their computer. I do and its so easy to set up.
You need networked file access to the folder. So it would work on a LAN, don't think it can work any other way though.
The committee does look at length of time on the site seriously when making a decision. We just don't say "X number of months" because then it's like "oh, this person is 5 days shy of the last month..." and it's just a bunch of technicalities and tallies we don't need to deal with. We know about how long they've been around.
Every issue that's been mentioned about the contract so far has been previously discussed by the staff and we still feel it is best to move forward with it. Remember - if they choose to challenge, that's more they gotta pay when they get shot down in court (not that I'd ever expect it to come to that).
We are also collecting addresses and phone numbers, btw (have been for a while now).
BTW, I will be giving parts, but cannot afford electricity or would have three personal ID boxes folding now. I have a router, know boxes and networking, could sign a contract as an adult, but simply due to medical bills for vision fixes and costs of starting a business am out of extra marginal cost funds like running another 350W box 24\7 and a UPS for same and cost for removing heat from same 7-8 months of the year. Otherwise, would throw my hat in ring also. I do have two more ports open on my firewalled router, but electricity is hyper-expensive in Florida all year round and climbing upward year by year. I run about 8 amps real draw of gear 24\6.9 now, on average-- and that does not include AC costs.
Prime, what legal costs would be involved in establishing a trust run by two or more adults(formal trusttees) and several minors under their supervision (delegated duties) doing core leadership with the trustees' guidance??? I would trust you as one, Shorty or MediaMan as one also.
Would be willing to serve down the line myself if wanted, but that is up to you who are in reality making all this possible with a considerable investment (site, site assets, moderating things, defining needed rules, maintaining server and DB, upgrading site software, paying for hosting, etc.-- with no HQ, no team of this caliber could survive). One reason, look at a trust or non-profit corp set up with trust mgmnt to get tax refund\charity benefits for parts givers, and you would get more parts that way that are better in quality. I know I could afford to give more that way.
I make this public to see what the potential givers and potential and current hosts think, most of the current hosts are involved in other very valuable ways here also.
John.
Realistically, are you going to be checking those hosts every hour of every day? No. You are going to check them a couple of times a month, maybe a couple per week for new hosts. So why not just bookmark the detailed Stats page for each SMx host, and check them instead? Gives you a better idea of weekly WU production anyways. That way, you don't have to walk everyone through setting up their router for EM3 remote access, and the hosts do not have to open a port on their LAN that can potentially expose them to some serious problems.
Dexter...
While I would happily host as many SMx machines as I possibly could ( i don't pay for electricity ), it comes down to a matter of physical space restraints (unless people want to send me 1U rackmount cases).
But if we start casing these things in 1U rackmounts, I'm your man. I can host probably 50-100 1U boxes if I had to
Let's wait until I move out of detroit first. No point in sending me parts just for the crackheads to take and turn into rocks
One could always slam said Heat if things went really bad. Perhaps as an attention getting tool. Seems one might be able to edit it should it have only been a "Mis-understanding"
. . . . . . . . . . .
Which only applies to a fraction of the folders here. I don't use Heatware, I don't trade parts online that much. Would that automatically disqualify me?
Dexter...
While I don't agree that the machines value is "$100" or around there, I really think saying "pieces of equipment worth thousands of dollars" sounds like trying to make something a bigger deal than it is. Yes, they are worth several hundred dollars, some more and some less, but I think putting a "legal team" on the SMx project is a poor idea.
People are going to shy away from hosting a box if they have to sign some piece of paper that says "THIS BOX WILL FOLD 24/7 OR WE'RE GOING TO TAKE LEGAL ACTION" and yes I know that's over dramatic, and I know people can take vacations and turn them off, etc, but that's basically what you're saying. I understand that it does no good for the team to have people take boxes and then not fold with them and never hear from them again, but it also does no good for the team to have people not want to worry about legal issues involved with hosting a machine and therfore not hosting one.
I think this especially holds true when we see team leaders making statements like that. This isn't a personal attack on you, but, it just seems like a rather drastic statement to make, makes it seem like the whole legal idea is getting off on the wrong foot to have such an aggressive "we're gonna get you if you mess up" attitude.
Funny that everyone uses the word "donate" when supplying parts to the SMx machines and then you call it 'recovering stolen equipment' ?? how can this be? I know that you're not "donating" this equipment to the people who are hosting the machines and it's to the team, just seems to me that most people who are supporting this are having a pretty agressive stance about it. Might affect people who were thinking about hosting machines is all I was saying, no need for personal attack through sarcasm.
but anyway, I was just providing my thoughts on this, I dont host an SMx box, I havent donated any parts and I havent given the team any money, so, my point is moot.
I'm seriously asking your opinion. I am somewhat in agreement with you - legal action is too harsh. But I honestly can't think of a better way to recover stolen equipment. Yes, it is stolen - the people who donated, myself for example, have a certain expectation. I sent a case to a host. It was brand new, not top of the line, but a little bit of money, especially with shipping. Do you think I want that case to go to some dude who's just gonna walk off with it? No way. I would consider that stealing. I gave that case to the team so that we could have another folding computer. If someone took it and used it for a different purpose, and I wanted it back, and was ignored and rebuffed, I would DEFINITELY consider that stealing.
So, no personal attacks intended, I'm asking honestly: What do you recommend?
I mean maybe these people weren't aware of the change and stopped visiting Icrontic and when it wasn't there for a while they just said "eh, must be gone" or do you know for a fact they are intentionally not returning your equipment and/or ignoring your attempts at contacting them?
The host is essentially borrowing them, knowing the costs incurred for electricity.
Just like a book from the library, if it isn't returned when it needs to be, and doesn't return under subsequent threats of collection etcetera, it's now stolen.
That's my .02c on the nature of the rigs.
Brings back memories of FoldingAddict and his red uniform....
No.
Some general points:
As the complexity of the Short-Media Donated Folding@Home Computer project ("SMX") has grown, so have the restrictions governing hosting the the SMX rigs. Why? As it has turned out, the great majority of the SMX recipients have been completely honorable, faithful, and diligent with maintain their Team Short-Media owned equipment.
The main purpose for a host to sign a legal agreement with the Team/Short-Media Web owners is to impress upon the candidate host the purpose of hosting, and the objective requirements of hosting. Would we (Team, Site, Site Owners - take your pick), go to court to recover an SMX machine? Probably not - but that's not really the point. The legal form is merely another tool in the chest to keep an ever expanding program running smoothly.
A gentlemens' agreement between the Team and host candidates, as it used to be, would be far preferable to our newly-added bureaucracy. Unfortunately, we can't rely anymore simply on one's word. Some of our hosts (10% or less!), have turned out to be less than mature and honorable.
Whether you have a signed legal document or not, it is still a "gentlemen's agreement" since everyone has said legal action would not be taken to recover a "stolen" box.
Why have the names of the person(s) who have "stolen" SMx boxes not been published? (maybe they have) If it is truly team property, everyone on the team has a right to know who they are. Maybe someone on the team knows somebody who knows somebody who knows the "thief" and can get the box back.
That being said, signing a contract would not deter me from wanting to host a SMx box should I have the desire to do so.
Note: I'm not picking at you Leo. I'm just using what you said as an example.