J's new PC

jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
edited June 2009 in Hardware
TF2 looks totally different. It's like I'm playing a cartoon. The graphics card rocks. However...

During my build I did run into some annoying problems.

Gigabyte issues:
1 - Gigabyte needs to supply the correct amount of cables for there motherboards. They have 4 SATA ports but just 2 cables? Come on...really? 2 SATA cables and they give you 2 IDE cables. There is one one freakn' IDE port! Having to go out and buy extra cable was annoying.

2 - There custom back plate for the connectors, come on, they couldn't just use the standard. Literally 1 audio jack did not line up with the case back plate.

Video Card issues:
All through it is a great card it didn't mention that it needed a PCIe power connector. So I ended up having to buy a new power supply just because of that. Even in manual it does not tell you what power connector it is. Only when you open the it up and look at the card. FAIL. Ok yes I'm a NOOB and PCIe connectors are prob pretty common with high end cards, but proper documentation would have been nice.

Positives:
The case was really nice to work with.
The Intel processor came with a fan. I'm use to getting CPU's with no fan.
I can notice a real difference between my old PC and this one.
TF2 look REALLY sweet. I put all option to MAX setting and it runs great.
Never had a PC that could do that.
Only got 3GB RAM recognition, but I'm only using a 32bit OS. Once windows 7 come out (for a reasonable price) I'll be all set.
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Comments

  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    And this, kids, is why you don't buy shitty off-brand power supplies. ;)

    //edit: There is no PC backplane standard. That's why they're interchangeable.
  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Heh. I don't think they need to include SATA cables for all their ports. The latest mobo I got has 8 ports IIRC. It'd be overkill for them to include them considering that every boxed SATA device these days comes with cables. I swear I've probably got a half dozen SATA cables floating around now because you get them with almost every component you buy these days.
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Thrax wrote:
    And this, kids, is why you don't buy shitty off-brand power supplies. ;)

    I love how you try to make it sound like I you caught me. :tongue2:

    Had the case power supply came with a PCIe connector it would have been the same as a overprices name brand.

    away with YOUR moonspeak
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Hey guys, have you heard? A Yugo is the same as a Ferrari because they both have engines and drive on the highway.
  • pigflipperpigflipper The Forgotten Coast Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    J, read up more on the differences in name brand and off brand PSU's.
  • MAGICMAGIC Doot Doot Furniture City, Michigan Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Power supplies may look the same on the outside and have many of the same features, but many differ in the quality of internal contructon and reliable consistent power output. Really, one of the more important parts of a system to read up on and make sure you're buying a quality piece.
  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    This is why we buy good PSUs that are tested and come from reputable vendors.
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Thrax wrote:
    Hey guys, have you heard? A Yugo is the same as a Ferrari because they both have engines and drive on the highway.

    compare apple to apples in analogy please.

    600W is 600W on any supply
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Buddy J wrote:
    This is why we buy good PSUs that are tested and come from reputable vendors.

    I question the test method- no detail on what type of load it was.

    Should we put this to a test. Get a name brand and cheapo and see how they compare.

    Anyone want to donate a name brand for a few days.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    No it's not. That's the point you're missing here.

    I can show you half a dozen 600W units that will never, ever produce 600w. They'll die at 300 or less. In fact, Peter just linked 2 units that fall short of their rating because they were made with shitty components.

    Your comments about load and heat are all well and good ceteris paribus, but it doesn't acknowledge the reality of PSU manufacturing.

    Some are bad. Some are not. Not all are equal.

    Anything else is just putting your head in the sand.

    //EDIT: JohnnyGuru uses a SunMoon load tester on the 12v, the primary rail for today's systems.
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    oh, I forgot to mention in one of my last post that for a person like myself who doesn't strain the supply to the limit all the time, it doesn't matter which PSU you pick. 600W is 600W. Weather it can sustain 600W for 30min or 10min is a different story. That is were the heating of the MOSFET come into play. Sorry moonspeak.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    It DOES matter, because we're not talking about a unit failing at sustained peak load. We're talking about the unit failing at 1/2 to 1/3 of its peak load. That's just 200w on a 600W unit. 300W at most. Your system easily consumes that amount, if not more.
  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Thrax is correct. Also, just because a unit is marketed at a certain wattage doesn't mean its max load is that wattage. Many units sold at 600W (as an example) have a max load under 600W. They just pick nice round numbers. Conversely, quality PSUs these days often times are able to support more than their rated wattage for extended periods of time.

    It also should be noted that wattage doesn't mean much compared to amperage on the individual lines. You can have a Eleventybillion Watt PSU but it doesn't mean anything if the 12v line only supports 20 amps.
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Buddy J wrote:
    This is why we buy good PSUs that are tested and come from reputable vendors.

    I looked at his tables and his math does not add up. He prob has no idea what he is doing
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    The tables are provided by the manufacturer, not him. Now what does that say about the quality of these budget manufacturers?

    JohnnyGuru is the most respected reviewer of power supplies on the internet.
  • BuddyJBuddyJ Dept. of Propaganda OKC Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    j wrote:
    has no idea what he is doing

    :tim:
  • RyderRyder Kalamazoo, Mi Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    j wrote:
    I looked at his tables and his math does not add up. He prob has no idea what he is doing
    J, OCZ has a $120,000 machine (irrelevant really, but I will throw it out there) to test PSU's called a Chroma tester. You can dial the load you want on any of the rails and simulate any "real life" load you want.
    I have personally exploded PSU's with the unit, it is a lot of "fun".
    The tester that Guru's site uses.. is equally as good and believe me, they do know what they are doing. That site is one of the deFacto sites on the net for accurate and unbiased PSU testing.

    Sure.. I have a "name brand" PSU you can use, lets put it up against your no name.
    I will collect the no name from you when I am in Warren in 2 weeks, then I will send it along with one of my OCZ's to PCPower facility, so they can be hooked up to the chroma.
    Your 600W (or whatever it is) will fail at about 55 - 68% capacity, just a prediction.

    :D
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Thrax wrote:
    The tables are provided by the manufacturer, not him. Now what does that say about the quality of these budget manufacturers?

    JohnnyGuru is the most respected reviewer of power supplies on the internet.

    um his result tables are provide by the manufacture?

    Check out Results from Hairong ATX-480W COLD load tests
    Test 1 he gets 198WDC. I add up 184.34WDC.

    "is the most respected reviewer of power supplies on the internet" . ;D

    I forgot that if your on the internet that means good.

    I read though his test methods. Not at all scientific, He let the machine do everything. Anybody can press buttons. What Waveforms, duty cycle, timing. ??? where are they. Inrush currents can screw up the testing as well, no mention on how he took care of that. He didn't test each rail on it's own. Come on if this hack is respected, I could start my own gig and rule.

    Lets really do a test. A real test. not some hack pressing buttons on a tester. Be a great write up for Icrontic.

    I would say:
    1- rails have to be tested individually at first, then all together.
    2- Have to measure the MOSFET temperature.
    3- Constant and pulsed loads(varying duty cycles).
    4- input power and voltage to be measure
    5- peak to peak ripple voltages for all rails.
    6- tested supplies either to have UL, CE or some other mark that tells it has been tested.

    I would expect this.
    The name brand will be able to hold the high power for longer periods of time, but both can provide the rated power.
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    RyderOCZ wrote:
    J, OCZ has a $120,000 machine (irrelevant really, but I will throw it out there) to test PSU's called a Chroma tester. You can dial the load you want on any of the rails and simulate any "real life" load you want.
    I have personally exploded PSU's with the unit, it is a lot of "fun".
    The tester that Guru's site uses.. is equally as good and believe me, they do know what they are doing. That site is one of the deFacto sites on the net for accurate and unbiased PSU testing.

    Sure.. I have a "name brand" PSU you can use, lets put it up against your no name.
    I will collect the no name from you when I am in Warren in 2 weeks, then I will send it along with one of my OCZ's to PCPower facility, so they can be hooked up to the chroma.
    Your 600W (or whatever it is) will fail at about 55 - 68% capacity, just a prediction.

    :D

    Alright, now were talking. Send me the specs on your PSU and I'll go buy the cheapo equivalent. Oooo this is going to be fun
  • RyderRyder Kalamazoo, Mi Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    I have access to whatever you want. Buy something and I can match it.
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    ok I'll need some help to select a cheapo.

    I was going for this
    Sunbeam PSU-BKS580-US 580W ATX Power Supply - OEM

    it's $20 for 580W. (newegg) Does anyone have ant objections...Thrax?
  • fatcatfatcat Mizzou Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    OH SHIT RYDER THREW DOWN THE HAMMMER!

    /me sits back a watches
  • RyderRyder Kalamazoo, Mi Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    j wrote:
    ok I'll need some help to select a cheapo.

    I was going for this
    Sunbeam PSU-BKS580-US 580W ATX Power Supply - OEM

    it's $20 for 580W. (newegg) Does anyone have ant objections...Thrax?
    I know I said I would match it, but OCZ only has 400, 500, 550, 600, etc. I don't have anything ending with 80 or 20 like you listed.

    If you are good with a 20 over or 30 under or whatever.. then we are good.
  • mertesnmertesn I am Bobby Miller Yukon, OK Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    j wrote:
    ok I'll need some help to select a cheapo.

    I was going for this
    Sunbeam PSU-BKS580-US 580W ATX Power Supply - OEM

    it's $20 for 580W. (newegg) Does anyone have ant objections...Thrax?
    No objections. If I were to put money on it, I would bet on Ryder and the experts.
  • SPIKE09SPIKE09 Scatland
    edited May 2009
    I did Question the generic PSU in your original thread, And as i have 4 OCZ 600W stealth and gamexstream PSU's I'm backing Ryder here
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    RyderOCZ wrote:
    I know I said I would match it, but OCZ only has 400, 500, 550, 600, etc. I don't have anything ending with 80 or 20 like you listed.

    If you are good with a 20 over or 30 under or whatever.. then we are good.

    ok how about this one
    COOLMAX V-500 500W ATX Power Supply
  • RyderRyder Kalamazoo, Mi Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    Fine with me.

    We also need to lay the ground rules of exactly what the challenge is.

    Just to put out 500W for 30 sec? 1 min? If your going that short.. forget it.

    Minimum 30min at max wattage or something.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    J 'bout to get schooled.
  • fatcatfatcat Mizzou Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    is this just OCZ, or that include PC Power & Cooling ;)
  • jj Sterling Heights, MI Icrontian
    edited May 2009
    RyderOCZ wrote:
    Fine with me.

    We also need to lay the ground rules of exactly what the challenge is.

    Just to put out 500W for 30 sec? 1 min? If your going that short.. forget it.

    Minimum 30min at max wattage or something.

    I'll layout a test plan before we get started, but 30min at max load won't be in it. 30min will definitely see the thermal runaway and I already said better PSU's can handle this better.

    I guess it's a good time restate my augument.

    Argument:
    For average users (like me) who don't push the limits of their PSU for long periods of time, one PSU is the same as any other. ie 500W OEM is the same as getting a 500W brand name.

    Reasoning(Warning! moonspeak ahead):
    When MOSFETS heat up their internal resistance (RDSon) goes up. As the resistance goes up the power dropped across the MOSFET goes up which results in more heat. Thermal run away occurs and the PSU will fail. For intermittent operation there is a chance for the MOSFETS to cool down and thus cheaper PSU's selection is not a big deal.


    Ok there you have it. This is what I'm setting out to prove.


    Counter points:
    1- the cheapo power supplies can not provide rated power even for short durations. They will fail way before their rating.
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