Counter-argument:
Cheapo power supplies -- even ones with a rating more than generous enough to accommodate an enthusiast's system -- are unable to sustain the load and will prematurely fail due to poor component quality.
J, to an certain extent, I can agree that some users can "get by" with el cheapo. However, I would never recommend one to anyone, nor would I build a machine for some one with one in it (chances are you'll be providing support). Also, hypothetically, 6 months to 1 year+ down the line, a killer deal on ram, or bigger badder video card, or CPU, or Blu-Ray Burner or any combonation thereof may come up. What is the status of the PSU now? Trash. With PSU's consistency is key.
The short-term cost savings on getting el cheapo now, you end up paying for later. What if you had nice 600W when you built your previous PC. You could have used that on this new one. Saving $$$ on a PSU for years and upgrades to come.
Here are the specs of two 600W power supplies I just pulled from Newegg. The price of the one on top is $29.99 and the one below is $79.99. Please check the differences between the two PSUs on 5V and 12V rails. The PSU with 50A on 5V is the cheaper one. Most of the power load (CPU+GPU) needs power on the 12V rail and out of the two, only the OCZ PSU can really handle the 600W load of a real system. I am not commenting on the reliability of the internal electronic components. IMHO, specifying the first PSU as 600W is flat out lying. No offense, just a friendly clarification
J I think your arguement is pretty poor. Its basically arguing the toss... Yes for some people, simple users a cheap psu will be ok for a while, but in the long run, they're more likely to fail, your limited if you want to upgrade, you have basically no support if they fail.
You have a slight point but its not worth arguing when the 'pro's' have a much more valid point...
0
Mt_GoatHead Cheezy KnobPflugerville (north of Austin)Icrontian
edited May 2009
BOTTOM LINE
Is your system that is worth hundreds of dollars worth risking to a PSU that only cost you peanuts? Hell no! The biggest reason I only buy quality PSU's is that I know they will be more dependable and not cost me expensive system components by taking them out when it blows chunks. To me it is wise insurance to pay more for quality and have peace of mind. I have had too many people bring me dead systems due to a PSU failure. And I am left telling them that the PSU killed the whole system or at least the key components. Also, a long time ago I took the gamble one time and was bit in the a$$. The PSU went and took the motherboard, CPU, RAM and graphics card with it. So a $39 PSU ended up ruining over $700 in components!
The other good thing about a quality PSU, is that if you do your homework it can be carried forward into future systems with no worry and will be there for cutting the cost on your next system or two. So if you think about it that way, you will not be spending any more than the cost of a cheap PSU over the duration of several systems. Case in point. I bought a PC Power and Cooling 510 SLI PSU when I built my first Abit NF-7S system years ago and it cost me $180 then. That same PSU went on to power my socket 939 Opteron system for several years, an AM2 system and now it is alive and well in an Intel C2 Duo system also pushing a high end graphics card. I say not too bad of an investment for the price paid almost 8 years ago! That same PSU aslo tests out as pushig close to 650 watts compared to its listed 510 watts!
So ask yourself if the health of your system is really worth the risk of using a cheap PSU?
Wait; so you're saying "average users" don't leave their computers running?
Are you suggesting that leaving the computer running more than, say, 5 hours at a time will introduce this thermal runaway you're talking about?
So people ("Average users") who cheap out on PSUs shouldn't run their computers for more than x hours at a time?
That, to me, is the very definition of a piece of shit. It's like "Take this average car on the road, but don't go too far or it will overheat".
Good point. That's why before I do a test plan I want to get some data. Since I'm calling myself an average user and I never turn my PC off (I know I should). I want to see how much power I actually use over a week.
If an independent 80 plus logo is not on the box, it should not find its way into a system worth more than a couple hundred dollars. With decent 80 plus certified power supply's starting at only $50 or so, you would be a fool to use anything less in a valued system.
For me, its simple, 80 plus certification or bust.
WOW, That proved absolutely nothing. If you notice he doesn't show his loads just a video sparking a power supply.
My guess is he is paid by the high cost power supply company to show a deceitful test. Boo Boo. Poor video, Poor Test. Mine will be much better. And prove that cheap power supply, for an average user is just as good as the expensive ones.
Note: I've never bought a high priced power supply for my PC or my families PC. and I have Never had a problem.
I'd venture to say that you have never had a problem because you have never pushed those units to any kind of serious load. I've used budget PSUs in many machines that I still own, most of which run 24/7, but they run 24/7 at idle load almost all the time. In addition, they're bare bones systems. Semprons, onboard everything, low end hard drive, 1GB of ram, single DVD-RW. There's no way in hell I would run ANY nVidia or ATI card that's worth over $50 on a budget PSU. I would never trust one to provide good continuous power at high loads. Let's face it, if you have a decent video card, you're probably gaming, which means processor, RAM, hard drive and video card(s) are all going to be running at or near full power. That's bad news bears for a low end power supply.
I don't think anyone is going to dispute the fact that a budget PSU vs. a high end corsair compared side by side in grandma's budget machine would yield pretty boring results. As in, the computer ran, Internet Explorer and Outlook worked fine and it shut down properly. The high end PSUs aren't meant for budget builds where web browsing is the most common activity. They are meant for high end systems with components that require high amounts of clean power. Once you start getting into the realm of video cards that require PCI-E power connections, that's where I'd ditch the budget realm of PSUs.
Geek Squad is in business because of generic power supplies. Millions of consumers that never pushed their PC had their shitacular Gateway and eMachine power supplies die by the hundreds of thousand every year.
I'd venture to say that you have never had a problem because you have never pushed those units to any kind of serious load. I've used budget PSUs in many machines that I still own, most of which run 24/7, but they run 24/7 at idle load almost all the time. In addition, they're bare bones systems. Semprons, onboard everything, low end hard drive, 1GB of ram, single DVD-RW. There's no way in hell I would run ANY nVidia or ATI card that's worth over $50 on a budget PSU. I would never trust one to provide good continuous power at high loads. Let's face it, if you have a decent video card, you're probably gaming, which means processor, RAM, hard drive and video card(s) are all going to be running at or near full power. That's bad news bears for a low end power supply.
I don't think anyone is going to dispute the fact that a budget PSU vs. a high end corsair compared side by side in grandma's budget machine would yield pretty boring results. As in, the computer ran, Internet Explorer and Outlook worked fine and it shut down properly. The high end PSUs aren't meant for budget builds where web browsing is the most common activity. They are meant for high end systems with components that require high amounts of clean power. Once you start getting into the realm of video cards that require PCI-E power connections, that's where I'd ditch the budget realm of PSUs.
Good observation Ryder. Since, my new system has a video card quality that I never had before. I might have to consider myself an above average user. hmm. This weekend I plan on taking measurement from my system to see were I stand.
I still stand behind my original statement, but I might have to exclude myself from the average user category.
WOW, That proved absolutely nothing. If you notice he doesn't show his loads just a video sparking a power supply.
My guess is he is paid by the high cost power supply company to show a deceitful test. Boo Boo. Poor video, Poor Test. Mine will be much better. And prove that cheap power supply, for an average user is just as good as the expensive ones.
Note: I've never bought a high priced power supply for my PC or my families PC. and I have Never had a problem.
J,
Please believe me when I say this. I want to support your argument. The pro consumer warrior in me wants to bust out and say that the power supply industry has perpetuated this myth in marketing high quality power supplies just to drive up their margin, but honestly I cant. The facts just will not support it. I'm fairly new to the icrontic community, but if you read some of what I have posted, I think you will see, your not going to find anyone in the world more suspicious of corporate technology marketing than I am.
Now, mind you, I am not saying everyone should run out and spend three times more than they need on a power supply. Some of the $200+ units I see are blatant overkill, and they are marketed to a certain niche user that will pay anything to have the absolute best in his system.
What I will say is this..... - There is absolutely no reason not to buy a quality 80 plus power supply when you consider the small price premium.
80 plus is doing the industry a great service by independently verifying the manufacturer claims. The pro consumer warrior in me can really get behind that, and look, some decent basic 80 plus certified units start at about $40. Why be unsure of your units quality when all you save is a a $10 bill?
Look, a basic 350 watt Seasonic 80 Plus supply is only $42 on newegg. Its a virtual no brainer in a system that does not have high demands, but you still want to be sure that your getting at least some level of assurance that it actual supplies the current it says it does on the label. 80 plus offers you that, as consumers we should be behind that kind of indipendent verification. Frankly, I won't instal anything in my systems, my friends systems, or my customers systems without seeing that 80 plus logo. Your power supply is connected to every single component in your system, every chip, every card, every drive, every fan, its an important component, and its critical that the manufactures of PSU are honest about the current they can deliver under load.
Once again, were not talking about massive price premiums to go with an 80 plus unit. 350 watt models at about $40, 500 watt models that would support a nice little gaming system for about $70 and you can trick out a hard core rig with juice to spare for around $100. There just isnt enough value in taking the risk by buying anything less.
Comments
Cheapo power supplies -- even ones with a rating more than generous enough to accommodate an enthusiast's system -- are unable to sustain the load and will prematurely fail due to poor component quality.
Are you suggesting that leaving the computer running more than, say, 5 hours at a time will introduce this thermal runaway you're talking about?
So people ("Average users") who cheap out on PSUs shouldn't run their computers for more than x hours at a time?
That, to me, is the very definition of a piece of shit. It's like "Take this average car on the road, but don't go too far or it will overheat".
The short-term cost savings on getting el cheapo now, you end up paying for later. What if you had nice 600W when you built your previous PC. You could have used that on this new one. Saving $$$ on a PSU for years and upgrades to come.
Here are the specs of two 600W power supplies I just pulled from Newegg. The price of the one on top is $29.99 and the one below is $79.99. Please check the differences between the two PSUs on 5V and 12V rails. The PSU with 50A on 5V is the cheaper one. Most of the power load (CPU+GPU) needs power on the 12V rail and out of the two, only the OCZ PSU can really handle the 600W load of a real system. I am not commenting on the reliability of the internal electronic components. IMHO, specifying the first PSU as 600W is flat out lying. No offense, just a friendly clarification
You have a slight point but its not worth arguing when the 'pro's' have a much more valid point...
Is your system that is worth hundreds of dollars worth risking to a PSU that only cost you peanuts? Hell no! The biggest reason I only buy quality PSU's is that I know they will be more dependable and not cost me expensive system components by taking them out when it blows chunks. To me it is wise insurance to pay more for quality and have peace of mind. I have had too many people bring me dead systems due to a PSU failure. And I am left telling them that the PSU killed the whole system or at least the key components. Also, a long time ago I took the gamble one time and was bit in the a$$. The PSU went and took the motherboard, CPU, RAM and graphics card with it. So a $39 PSU ended up ruining over $700 in components!
The other good thing about a quality PSU, is that if you do your homework it can be carried forward into future systems with no worry and will be there for cutting the cost on your next system or two. So if you think about it that way, you will not be spending any more than the cost of a cheap PSU over the duration of several systems. Case in point. I bought a PC Power and Cooling 510 SLI PSU when I built my first Abit NF-7S system years ago and it cost me $180 then. That same PSU went on to power my socket 939 Opteron system for several years, an AM2 system and now it is alive and well in an Intel C2 Duo system also pushing a high end graphics card. I say not too bad of an investment for the price paid almost 8 years ago! That same PSU aslo tests out as pushig close to 650 watts compared to its listed 510 watts!
So ask yourself if the health of your system is really worth the risk of using a cheap PSU?
Good point. That's why before I do a test plan I want to get some data. Since I'm calling myself an average user and I never turn my PC off (I know I should). I want to see how much power I actually use over a week.
Is there any data out there already?
If an independent 80 plus logo is not on the box, it should not find its way into a system worth more than a couple hundred dollars. With decent 80 plus certified power supply's starting at only $50 or so, you would be a fool to use anything less in a valued system.
For me, its simple, 80 plus certification or bust.
WOW, That proved absolutely nothing. If you notice he doesn't show his loads just a video sparking a power supply.
My guess is he is paid by the high cost power supply company to show a deceitful test. Boo Boo. Poor video, Poor Test. Mine will be much better. And prove that cheap power supply, for an average user is just as good as the expensive ones.
Note: I've never bought a high priced power supply for my PC or my families PC. and I have Never had a problem.
I don't think anyone is going to dispute the fact that a budget PSU vs. a high end corsair compared side by side in grandma's budget machine would yield pretty boring results. As in, the computer ran, Internet Explorer and Outlook worked fine and it shut down properly. The high end PSUs aren't meant for budget builds where web browsing is the most common activity. They are meant for high end systems with components that require high amounts of clean power. Once you start getting into the realm of video cards that require PCI-E power connections, that's where I'd ditch the budget realm of PSUs.
~FA
:thumbup Thank you!
I still stand behind my original statement, but I might have to exclude myself from the average user category.
J,
Please believe me when I say this. I want to support your argument. The pro consumer warrior in me wants to bust out and say that the power supply industry has perpetuated this myth in marketing high quality power supplies just to drive up their margin, but honestly I cant. The facts just will not support it. I'm fairly new to the icrontic community, but if you read some of what I have posted, I think you will see, your not going to find anyone in the world more suspicious of corporate technology marketing than I am.
Now, mind you, I am not saying everyone should run out and spend three times more than they need on a power supply. Some of the $200+ units I see are blatant overkill, and they are marketed to a certain niche user that will pay anything to have the absolute best in his system.
What I will say is this..... - There is absolutely no reason not to buy a quality 80 plus power supply when you consider the small price premium.
80 plus is doing the industry a great service by independently verifying the manufacturer claims. The pro consumer warrior in me can really get behind that, and look, some decent basic 80 plus certified units start at about $40. Why be unsure of your units quality when all you save is a a $10 bill?
Look, a basic 350 watt Seasonic 80 Plus supply is only $42 on newegg. Its a virtual no brainer in a system that does not have high demands, but you still want to be sure that your getting at least some level of assurance that it actual supplies the current it says it does on the label. 80 plus offers you that, as consumers we should be behind that kind of indipendent verification. Frankly, I won't instal anything in my systems, my friends systems, or my customers systems without seeing that 80 plus logo. Your power supply is connected to every single component in your system, every chip, every card, every drive, every fan, its an important component, and its critical that the manufactures of PSU are honest about the current they can deliver under load.
Once again, were not talking about massive price premiums to go with an 80 plus unit. 350 watt models at about $40, 500 watt models that would support a nice little gaming system for about $70 and you can trick out a hard core rig with juice to spare for around $100. There just isnt enough value in taking the risk by buying anything less.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151038
Sorry, what was your original statement?
My offer still stands, if he wants to do it, I do reserve the right to review his terms though.
J.. if you are around this weekend.. will be in tha 'D' Fri-Sun (tentatively) I could use a hand from a skinny guy