Further more, not ment to be totaly inflamatory, but if I took my rig to you as a tech to fix it and you came to me and told me that my problem was because I used an 80wire connector on my drive instead of an 40 wire as you suggest, I would take my rig walk out your door and never go back to your shop. I very much doubt that you would ever get any business from some one I knew too...
It is just so obserd to think that if some one is having CD-rom trouble that you would think that its an 80 vs 40 wire thing.
.....
[Edited to cover up my own stupidity]
I have fixed boxes that other techs bring me just that way. 2\3 of my incomes comes from fixing boxes other techs can't fix, and 90% of those techs have 2 plus years of full-time hands-on experince and CompTIA A+ and other certifications.
I have a burner which came from my ol' HP computer. We got it during the Ford/HP dealie, so it's ~year 2000 made too, if not OLDER.
As of right now, the burner is operating off of an 80 wire cable. True, the burner cannot seem to burn at 4X anymore (it's max speed), but this happened when the device was in fact on a 40 wire cable anyhow. To this day it still burns at 2X.
It's just a cheap burner, and this had nothing to do with it being on a 80 wire cable, as the drive had never been connected to an 80 wire cable until AFTER the problem was discovered.
Furthermore, how could the extra ground wires get used for sending data, when none of these wires have pins connecting them to data I/O?
I have fixed boxes that other techs bring me just that way. 2\3 of my incomes comes from fixing boxes other techs can't fix, and 90% of those techs have 2 plus years of full-time hands-on experince and CompTIA A+ and other certifications.
John.
Hey that's fine, guess I'm :Pwned: in that respect...
Still I can't say as I buy into your program. What you are saying simply defies logical thinking... BTW do you keep track to see if any of those boxes that you "fix" with 40 pin cables and go back to the customer ever return with the same problem...?
you probably just plugged the cable in reverse. I have a 4GB ata33 drive. I can use an 80 wire cable with it, but only reversed. as in the motherboard end has to be plugged in to the drive and vice versa. it won't work the normal way. and john, this ain't no flame war, it's just that you're wrong.
0
Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited January 2004
Hundreds of times, no.
Cables I use are keyed, so unless you plug middle connector of an 80 conductor cable into mobo it is hard to get a cable signal set trashed by being totally tail-backwards Pin one will trace through to pin 1 either way round from end to end if connectors are keyed and socket or pin row cowls also are. I have been playing with and upgrading and building boxes since BEFORE CD-ROMs of 2x were latest thing. My sense of older and yours is different.
Funny thing, try plugging a 40 conductor and older drives into a mobo with mobo connector to middle connector on the 40 conductor cable. If you force jumper the devices connected to other connectors, it will work fine. Distance is less needed. with the tech used for what 80 conductor cables were made for, minimum signal over wire distance can be a factor, and minimum distance is wanted from mobo to device.
No, not wrong except in how you interpreted what was said.
i don't mean that you plugged it in wrong like that. i'll draw it, look.
Normally the cable is plugged in like so: mobo |
|---| drive
I'm saying that my drive only worked this way mobo |---|
| drive
i don't mean that you would cut out the keyed plastic piece, I just mean that you should try flipping the cable the other way..... oh never mind, it's too hard to explain. hopefully you can get what I mean with my amazing ASCII art. and my first CDROM was like an 8x, back in 1996 or so. I've been playing around a long time too.
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Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited January 2004
No, what I said relates to minimum signal distance(relates to accumulated resistance and travel delay for signal) as you apply it to what I said, and the middle connector is deliberately offset in 80 conductor cable. Flipping 80 conductor cable in only way possible non-destructively with both devices connected in CS mode, can do what you got, with an 80 conductor cable, easily. And not invalidate what I said at all.
Separate illustrations of principle from exceptions.
Straight_ManGeeky, in my own wayNaples, FLIcrontian
edited January 2004
Older drive, designed for certain slower signal propagation times and signal XMIT strengths. 40 conductor cable has bigger conductors, less resistance per inch of cable. Weaker signal can be made with cheaper components. Narrower conductors in 80 conductor cable have more resistance internally, unless of copper and not of aluminum. Newer devices defined for high speed siognalling and high data flow rates, the system has to be based on signal loss and delay, unless we are talking over lightspeed, and we are not there yet. In CS, with devices of gen that came out same time as MMC3, closest device to contrtoller on mobo becomes slave and farthest master.
Older devices could hang either way, with device deciding what ID it would take in case of CD-RWs in many cases if they were CS jumpered. Get two with propensity to same ID (slave or master) you get a mess. Older controllers expect deivces to decide, set speed by slowest response on channel,used to lock easier than new.
Now, you take a device with older mfr date, it is slower, and it expects a slower signal interchange-- too fast an exchange from other end would and do overwhelm it adn cause a device performance mess. Match with controller that expects faster pulses, controller can say to read twice while older device is reading, and device can then read twice as long-- and laser is on with opticals that use a laser. So, the gen before the ATA\133 and some controllers on mobos with ATA\133 and down to ATA\66 used a signal detect strategy to determine base bus speed and then matched by device. BUT, they were not intended to cope with pure PIO or UDMA 1 or UDMA 2 devices very well, they were speed tuned. Put on older cable, they change signal typing and exchange timing if they can handle ATA\33 and up, based on signal test non-returns in part. So, devices of optical nature that are not able to be run at a fast data and signal exchange rate tend to malf and overheat as laser makes for a lot of heat as it even excites air molecules as beam passes through,and when older devices have many reads queued, they tend to leave laser on for longer than designed to tolerate.
All your posts seem to suffer from the inherent inability to recognize that ATA33 is compatible with any controller, cable, chip, device, <b>ANYTHING</B> through ATA133.
That is to say any drive can be used on any controller with any cable and nothing is going to go wrong as a direct or indirect result of any of the involved ATA components. This is what we call a "Backwards compatible specification." Your years in the field, which one would assume would produce a knowledgeable technician, should make you aware of this phrase and what it implies.
I'm with Thrax on this one. All the machines I have ever built, and all the machines I have changed, I have used 80 wire cables (obviously after they were implemented). On old CD-Rom drives, on New CD-Rom drives, Old CD-RWs, New CD-RWs, and DVD-RWs and I have never once had a problem from using an 80 pin cable, even on machines that don't support above ATA33, just for the sheer facts that normally they are the only cables I have around, and secondly, for future upgrades (obviously this doesn't apply to the older machines).
0
KwitkoSheriff of Banning (Retired)By the thing near the stuffIcrontian
So what, it was heat causation illustration using specific example. The other devices use glass lenses, not polycarb lenses. Thus, the lenses stand up to heat only 4X better.
John.
WTF are you talking about? Who said anything about lens composition??? What does that have to do with a command that overwrites the firmware of a CD-ROM drive? Jeebus, John, if someone debates you on the existence of God, do you argue the increase in interstate traffic patterns in Iowa? FFS, talk about topics relevent to the subject at hand.
i've had HP 2x and 4x cd-rw's, 2x cd-roms all the way up to current stuff, and have never seen anything that wont work on 80 wire cables.
the ONLY thing i have seen is that ATA66-ATA100-ATA133 devices wont work on 40 wire cables. i found that out when i tried to put a Maxtor ATA66 drive in a removable carriage that was only made for ATA33.
Comments
I have fixed boxes that other techs bring me just that way. 2\3 of my incomes comes from fixing boxes other techs can't fix, and 90% of those techs have 2 plus years of full-time hands-on experince and CompTIA A+ and other certifications.
John.
As of right now, the burner is operating off of an 80 wire cable. True, the burner cannot seem to burn at 4X anymore (it's max speed), but this happened when the device was in fact on a 40 wire cable anyhow. To this day it still burns at 2X.
It's just a cheap burner, and this had nothing to do with it being on a 80 wire cable, as the drive had never been connected to an 80 wire cable until AFTER the problem was discovered.
Furthermore, how could the extra ground wires get used for sending data, when none of these wires have pins connecting them to data I/O?
Hey that's fine, guess I'm :Pwned: in that respect...
Still I can't say as I buy into your program. What you are saying simply defies logical thinking... BTW do you keep track to see if any of those boxes that you "fix" with 40 pin cables and go back to the customer ever return with the same problem...?
Cables I use are keyed, so unless you plug middle connector of an 80 conductor cable into mobo it is hard to get a cable signal set trashed by being totally tail-backwards Pin one will trace through to pin 1 either way round from end to end if connectors are keyed and socket or pin row cowls also are. I have been playing with and upgrading and building boxes since BEFORE CD-ROMs of 2x were latest thing. My sense of older and yours is different.
Funny thing, try plugging a 40 conductor and older drives into a mobo with mobo connector to middle connector on the 40 conductor cable. If you force jumper the devices connected to other connectors, it will work fine. Distance is less needed. with the tech used for what 80 conductor cables were made for, minimum signal over wire distance can be a factor, and minimum distance is wanted from mobo to device.
No, not wrong except in how you interpreted what was said.
John.
Normally the cable is plugged in like so: mobo |
|---| drive
I'm saying that my drive only worked this way mobo |---|
| drive
i don't mean that you would cut out the keyed plastic piece, I just mean that you should try flipping the cable the other way..... oh never mind, it's too hard to explain. hopefully you can get what I mean with my amazing ASCII art. and my first CDROM was like an 8x, back in 1996 or so. I've been playing around a long time too.
Separate illustrations of principle from exceptions.
John.
Older devices could hang either way, with device deciding what ID it would take in case of CD-RWs in many cases if they were CS jumpered. Get two with propensity to same ID (slave or master) you get a mess. Older controllers expect deivces to decide, set speed by slowest response on channel,used to lock easier than new.
Now, you take a device with older mfr date, it is slower, and it expects a slower signal interchange-- too fast an exchange from other end would and do overwhelm it adn cause a device performance mess. Match with controller that expects faster pulses, controller can say to read twice while older device is reading, and device can then read twice as long-- and laser is on with opticals that use a laser. So, the gen before the ATA\133 and some controllers on mobos with ATA\133 and down to ATA\66 used a signal detect strategy to determine base bus speed and then matched by device. BUT, they were not intended to cope with pure PIO or UDMA 1 or UDMA 2 devices very well, they were speed tuned. Put on older cable, they change signal typing and exchange timing if they can handle ATA\33 and up, based on signal test non-returns in part. So, devices of optical nature that are not able to be run at a fast data and signal exchange rate tend to malf and overheat as laser makes for a lot of heat as it even excites air molecules as beam passes through,and when older devices have many reads queued, they tend to leave laser on for longer than designed to tolerate.
John.
That is to say any drive can be used on any controller with any cable and nothing is going to go wrong as a direct or indirect result of any of the involved ATA components. This is what we call a "Backwards compatible specification." Your years in the field, which one would assume would produce a knowledgeable technician, should make you aware of this phrase and what it implies.
K?
WTF are you talking about? Who said anything about lens composition??? What does that have to do with a command that overwrites the firmware of a CD-ROM drive? Jeebus, John, if someone debates you on the existence of God, do you argue the increase in interstate traffic patterns in Iowa? FFS, talk about topics relevent to the subject at hand.
the ONLY thing i have seen is that ATA66-ATA100-ATA133 devices wont work on 40 wire cables. i found that out when i tried to put a Maxtor ATA66 drive in a removable carriage that was only made for ATA33.