Actually, I care. I heard a recent interview with a social psychologist who posited that homosexual characters appearing in popular culture has helped to shift the public's view in a positive direction, thus, a gay character appearing in DC comics might help to decrease bigotry somewhat.
Or... you know... people could just stop being ignorant and mind their own damn business.
That's the point. People can only do that if they start to see the differences between them and others as part of their 'normal' world. One of the reasons that many people still don't think of homosexuality as one potential normal is that they rarely see it in a positive light in popular media. Getting more gay characters in our stories will help everyone to stop being ignorant and to mind their own damn business.
Most of the people in this conversation already see homosexuality as part of their normal world, and so to us, it's 'so what', but some in the world are not so privaleged.
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JBoogalooThis too shall pass...Alexandria, VAIcrontian
Actually, I care. I heard a recent interview with a social psychologist who posited that homosexual characters appearing in popular culture has helped to shift the public's view in a positive direction, thus, a gay character appearing in DC comics might help to decrease bigotry somewhat.
Viewing homosexuality in a negative way already communicates a level of intolerance and ignorance. You really think announcing a "popular character" as gay is going to help decrease this among the already less than tolerable person ?
I personally feel that there will be more backlash from that same group of people.
Everyone else who doesn't mind will be saying "who cares?"
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KwitkoSheriff of Banning (Retired)By the thing near the stuffIcrontian
Actually, I care. I heard a recent interview with a social psychologist who posited that homosexual characters appearing in popular culture has helped to shift the public's view in a positive direction, thus, a gay character appearing in DC comics might help to decrease bigotry somewhat.
It's not about the people at either polar extreme, it's about the ones in the middle. The people that don't have a strong opinion already (and yes, they do exist). Honestly, it's mostly about reaching people who are still young.
What society must grasp is that understanding is not necessary for acceptance.
I have gay family. I've been to gay parties, I love and respect everyone, but to be honest, I don't completely understand what it is to be gay on some levels, and that's okay, nobody expects me to. You just have to accept that this is them, it's real, it's honest, they just want to be themselves. The fact is gay folks are different, maybe even a little odd to some of us, once again, as long as your willing to accept them as they are, I think you qualify as tolerant, even if you don't completely understand what makes them tick.
Some of us are kind of nerdy and socially awkward by admission, we know what its like. You don't have to obsess over super hero comics and play video games with me, but don't put the kick me sign on my back at lunch either. To say, hey, I don't get that guy is not to say you don't accept me as I am, I'm me, you don't need to understand me to accept me.
The thing that is amazing about it is if anyone should understand it should be the devoutly religious. People that spend their time talking to an invisible entity based on faith, so much that it becomes a fundamental part of who they are. The religious are protected from persecution for their beliefs, it's one of the founding principles for our nation. One would think religious people that have fought so hard for acceptance in our society would understand the plight of the gay community.
It's not much different than grown ass men that love My Little Pony. I don't get it, I think its slightly odd, but I completely love and respect them all. If they say they love it, then why would they make it up just to wind my watch?
ok gay, straight, black, white, atheist, religious why do these things matter? Having differences is what what make people people. If we were all the same we might as well be clones and be program what to do.
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KwitkoSheriff of Banning (Retired)By the thing near the stuffIcrontian
Take out gay and replace it with Kwitko. Hilarity ensues.
What society must grasp is that understanding is not necessary for acceptance.
I have Kwitko family. I've been to Kwitko parties, I love and respect everyone, but to be honest, I don't completely understand what it is to be Kwitko on some levels, and that's okay, nobody expects me to. You just have to accept that this is them, it's real, it's honest, they just want to be themselves. The fact is Kwitko folks are different, maybe even a little odd to some of us, once again, as long as your willing to accept them as they are, I think you qualify as tolerant, even if you don't completely understand what makes them tick.
Some of us are kind of nerdy and socially awkward by admission, we know what its like. You don't have to obsess over super hero comics and play video games with me, but don't put the kick me sign on my back at lunch either. To say, hey, I don't get that guy is not to say you don't accept me as I am, I'm me, you don't need to understand me to accept me.
The thing that is amazing about it is if anyone should understand it should be the devoutly religious. People that spend their time talking to an invisible entity based on faith, so much that it becomes a fundamental part of who they are. The religious are protected from persecution for their beliefs, it's one of the founding principles for our nation. One would think religious people that have fought so hard for acceptance in our society would understand the plight of the Kwitko community.
It's not much different than grown ass men that love My Little Pony. I don't get it, I think its slightly odd, but I completely love and respect them all. If they say they love it, then why would they make it up just to wind my watch?
My youngest brother is a gay man, and he and his partner will throw an occasional party where straight folks will be the minority (thus my meaning "gay parties") That said, it's truly eye opening because they universally love straight folks that accept them. They will meet you and be like wow, you are straight, here, still love your brother, dude, your fucking cool. It's actually really nice, all they want is that acceptance, and you offer that and you get treated like a Rock Star just for that little gesture.
It is a different experience. Listen, some of the stereotypes do exist, guys that love to talk about hair care products and their favorite scented candles, they are there, and frankly, I don't get it, I don't connect with personally, but I love and accept them, they are great guys that just want to be themselves, and if that's your thing, awesome, like I said, don't tell me my yearly speed run of Mega Man 2 is a waste of my time, we all are a little different. On the flip side once you start talking there are always going to be similarities, things that surprise you once you get past that first exchange, a few baseball fans, guys and ladies that are working to raise kids together (nothing like bonding over parental issues), everyone seems to have a favorite Pizza joint, I mean when you get down to it all differences and awkwardness they are just superficial things, deep down we just all want to be accepted. Why is that so hard for people to do?
And like the GAP ad, One Million Moms continues to show their ignorance and bigotry in as big as way as they can. Huffing and puffing and emailing away.
Wow thats quite a ridiculous comment too. Feel like people think that because you a christian we have to hate gay people. I have gay friends, they know I dont like the fact they like men but I accept them for who they are and they are cool with that. So why the " christians hate gay people? " I have been raised you dont have to like what they do but Jesus died for all men/women and he loves gays the same as everyone else
Leviticus 18:22 in the original Hebrew is worded in the same way that other verses of Leviticus word the proscription against eating shellfish. These religious laws were written in such a way to provide structure around its adherents to avoid things that might lead to illness, rather than a description of what is/is not moral. Few people today would argue that you're going to go to hell if you eat shrimp, but back before the first century, it was very difficult to find shellfish in the Middle East that was clean enough to not give you food poisoning. So the religious laws banned its consumption outright to make people's lives easier.
Also, Gnome, I don't think that Magic was referring to all Christians in that light, only pointing out that the subset who are bigoted will care about a comic book character's sexual orientation.
Back on topic, I especially enjoyed the ending quote of the article that Cliff linked:
"Most people's prejudice stems from their ignorance and isolation, be it racial or someone's sexuality. It's usually due to them not going out into the world and experiencing it," he says.
"I hope that showing a positive character like Green Lantern Alan Scott helps in some small, small way to bring down the walls and barriers."
I don't find it ridiculous at all. If you use religion as your basis to discrimiate against someone you are a bigot, and it is predominantly the Old Testimate based faithes that perpetuate it.
... and before the shitstorm ensues, I'm not attacking your faith. Im just saying that if that line didnt exist Christian folk would have no reason to have to "dont like the fact they like men".
Wow thats quite a ridiculous comment too. Feel like people think that because you a christian we have to hate gay people. I have gay friends, they know I dont like the fact they like men but I accept them for who they are and they are cool with that. So why the " christians hate gay people? " I have been raised you dont have to like what they do but Jesus died for all men/women and he loves gays the same as everyone else
I don't know that I speak for him, but he specifically called out religious bigots, not a group inclusive of Christians or all religious people. The author of that passage had certain reasons and people now may or may not be in line with the author's or what they perceive to be the will of their god. What I have to say about the rest of your response is not IC-kosher though, too far into the "no religion or politics" rule.
I know the Icrontic regulars are capable of intelligent political and theological discussion. I think the "rule" is more or less saying, "don't be a dick".
The issue here is sociopolitical, and for some it's also theological. I think on a modern forum discussion board it's nearly impossible to avoid these sensitive issues. I'm happy to see this topic has survived thus far.
I confident @Magic did not intend to offend any tolerant person of faith.
Saying that, something to keep in mind when we choose salty language to voice our displeasure for those that trespass on our ideology, it can coarsen the discourse to some degree. While I may interpret that as passion for tolerance which I very much appreciate, that kind of language can make it hard to have a reasonable dialogue with someone who may be on the fence.
To address the points of @GnomeWizardd - I was raised Catholic. I must say much more positive came from that upbringing than negative. I learned about charity, about selflessness, about love. I can't recall a single time at Mass where the Father said, you know, Gay's, don't associate with them, don't love them, hate their guts. Now, I don't support the Gay community's exclusion in the church, and it's something that has lead me to question my faith, but I think what @GnomeWizardd is suggesting is that we all be careful about the words we choose when discussing such a sensitive issue. I think that's fair, and I'm confident we will all do so, because we are Icrontians, and Icrontians are cool like that.
Comments
Most of the people in this conversation already see homosexuality as part of their normal world, and so to us, it's 'so what', but some in the world are not so privaleged.
I personally feel that there will be more backlash from that same group of people.
Everyone else who doesn't mind will be saying "who cares?"
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/23/church-member-defends-pastor-worley/
I have gay family. I've been to gay parties, I love and respect everyone, but to be honest, I don't completely understand what it is to be gay on some levels, and that's okay, nobody expects me to. You just have to accept that this is them, it's real, it's honest, they just want to be themselves. The fact is gay folks are different, maybe even a little odd to some of us, once again, as long as your willing to accept them as they are, I think you qualify as tolerant, even if you don't completely understand what makes them tick.
Some of us are kind of nerdy and socially awkward by admission, we know what its like. You don't have to obsess over super hero comics and play video games with me, but don't put the kick me sign on my back at lunch either. To say, hey, I don't get that guy is not to say you don't accept me as I am, I'm me, you don't need to understand me to accept me.
The thing that is amazing about it is if anyone should understand it should be the devoutly religious. People that spend their time talking to an invisible entity based on faith, so much that it becomes a fundamental part of who they are. The religious are protected from persecution for their beliefs, it's one of the founding principles for our nation. One would think religious people that have fought so hard for acceptance in our society would understand the plight of the gay community.
It's not much different than grown ass men that love My Little Pony. I don't get it, I think its slightly odd, but I completely love and respect them all. If they say they love it, then why would they make it up just to wind my watch?
Now NY Yankee fans on the other hand.....
Having differences is what what make people people. If we were all the same we might as well
be clones and be program what to do.
It is a different experience. Listen, some of the stereotypes do exist, guys that love to talk about hair care products and their favorite scented candles, they are there, and frankly, I don't get it, I don't connect with personally, but I love and accept them, they are great guys that just want to be themselves, and if that's your thing, awesome, like I said, don't tell me my yearly speed run of Mega Man 2 is a waste of my time, we all are a little different. On the flip side once you start talking there are always going to be similarities, things that surprise you once you get past that first exchange, a few baseball fans, guys and ladies that are working to raise kids together (nothing like bonding over parental issues), everyone seems to have a favorite Pizza joint, I mean when you get down to it all differences and awkwardness they are just superficial things, deep down we just all want to be accepted. Why is that so hard for people to do?
Also, Gnome, I don't think that Magic was referring to all Christians in that light, only pointing out that the subset who are bigoted will care about a comic book character's sexual orientation.
Back on topic, I especially enjoyed the ending quote of the article that Cliff linked:
The issue here is sociopolitical, and for some it's also theological. I think on a modern forum discussion board it's nearly impossible to avoid these sensitive issues. I'm happy to see this topic has survived thus far.
I confident @Magic did not intend to offend any tolerant person of faith.
Saying that, something to keep in mind when we choose salty language to voice our displeasure for those that trespass on our ideology, it can coarsen the discourse to some degree. While I may interpret that as passion for tolerance which I very much appreciate, that kind of language can make it hard to have a reasonable dialogue with someone who may be on the fence.
To address the points of @GnomeWizardd - I was raised Catholic. I must say much more positive came from that upbringing than negative. I learned about charity, about selflessness, about love. I can't recall a single time at Mass where the Father said, you know, Gay's, don't associate with them, don't love them, hate their guts. Now, I don't support the Gay community's exclusion in the church, and it's something that has lead me to question my faith, but I think what @GnomeWizardd is suggesting is that we all be careful about the words we choose when discussing such a sensitive issue. I think that's fair, and I'm confident we will all do so, because we are Icrontians, and Icrontians are cool like that.