General Windows 10 Discussion
Thrax
🐌Austin, TX Icrontian
This discussion was created from comments split from: Windows 10 launches this week. AMA..
0
Comments
After a couple weeks of Windows 10 updates pushing themselves onto the machines of unsuspecting senior citizens that keep me employed.... Dear Microsoft, Bite me....
That icon in the lower right, the questions that follow..... Should I? Do I have to? How long do I have? I did it or maybe It did it to me... Why is everything different? I did it and now my system just flashes, I can't log in (multiple configurations you have to turn off windows error reporting to get it to boot)... My sound doesn't work now, my printer stopped working. Why are the tiles so small now? My windows live games from the 8.1 app store don't work anymore. Why does it insist on me making a Microsoft account, why do I need that? It made me enter a password and now I can't remember it to log in.... Why does my machine keep updating, isn't this OS brand new? Wasn't it ready? Why am I waiting for the system to update each time I log off? I read Microsoft is invading my privacy, is that true?
Now, before someone comes and inevitably rationalizes why there are ways around all these issues... Just understand, if it isn't immediately intuitive, it just isn't good for the general computer user.
****What a cluster#$%!!****
I've updated many Apple machines, never once has it posed a serious issue for the user. The OS mostly looks the same after you finish, the desktop isn't significantly overhauled. They have this thing that works for their customers and they are all too pleased to stick with it. The Mac update is there, but you have to look for it, it's on your terms.. Want to go from Mavericks to Yosemite, whenever you like, no rush. It isn't like there is this little apple wiggling in your face pretty much urging you to give it a go....
Don't even get me started on the brilliance of ChromeOS in comparison. No local updates at all? Yes.. God yes...
Microsoft has marketed a sense of urgency for a desktop interface that isn't for everyone. Really, they would have been better off to say, WIndows 8/8.1... So sorry, rolled everyone back to 7 and any changes made should have been under the hood without getting in the way of the desktop interface. You would think the new start menu and search bar would be really simple things, but I'm telling you, most people are confused as hell, and I'm not just talking about 85 year olds, I'm talking early 60 somethings that are reasonably comfortable at a computer. They are having a serious WTF moment with it.
I mean, for me, it's like this. Good for you Microsoft, you added multiple desktops, been doing that in Ubuntu for years. Integrated the search bar into the task bar instead of hiding it because whoever developed Windows 8 pretty much decided he wanted to screw with their users... And yeah, I can talk to you now and ask you to do a web search, that's neat, We have been talking to Apple and Google for awhile now. Edge browser, neat ideas, but performance is subpar next to Chrome and Firefox right now... Honestly, the only compelling features in Windows 10 are things that only power users are going to understand how to leverage. I like Windows 10, but calling it "a more human way to do" just isn't so. Frankly its a free screw up fix for a terrible desktop OS, and an overly complicated GUI compared to the one from 2009.
Now it might sound like I'm saying I don't like Windows 10... For me, it's fine. What I dislike is Microsoft. That incompetent group can't even give a product update away for free without it being a total disaster for a large portion of their users.
Gotta go, Windows needs to install some critical updates.
You obviously went into it with this mindset. I've had zero issues with Win10 since the earliest preview (aside from obvious non-released drivers due to, you know, pre-RTM builds). If I had any hiccups, it's the same as I've had with any Windows install (e.g. poorly implemented UEFI on one of my laptops).
You're then throwing stones...
God forbid they do something that other people love because someone did it first. In that same vein, to your other points... Great! Linux has done these awesome things, but how many 85 year olds.. sorry, 60-somethings run Linux-based OSes with confidence? Or at all?!
Your "M$ sucks" mentality shines in your first sentence. I work directly with MS on a daily basis, and I've never met a more competent group of people. The only reason you have the ability to throw these insults is because of the massive market share Microsoft has. Anything this big is under a microscope from the second it's released.
You compare this to Apple machines, but they don't have the clout in the truly productive industries. Additionally, saying something like "The [Apple] OS mostly looks the same after you finish [an update], the desktop isn't significantly overhauled" doesn't change the fact that things need to change. If we followed this mentality, we'd still be full CLI.
I'm not sure what you're bitter about, but you're prematurely attacking MS blindly without any basis for your accusations. You say that your problems are caused by Win10, when what you said immediately triggered (to me) a thought that it sounds like a hardware problem, which was corroborated by other individuals in this thread.
Short of it: Shit changes. If it didn't, then where the hell would we be? CLI forever? No multitasking? Same shitty (at the time, awesome) Win95 start menu? Asking MS to provide for 60-to-85-year-olds who don't want to keep up is ridiculous. Aside, "2nd Tuesday updates" have been a thing for a long time now. If the seniors can't deal with that, they're never going to get any new OS. Security holes happen. Vendors fix it. Updates obviously have to be pushed.
Get over yourself.
Indeed. Also vi or gtfo.
@Cyclonite I don't think Microsoft needs a white knight to defend them. Pretty sure they have enough money to hire lawyers to do that.
Also, I'm pretty sure you're combining my comment from earlier with Cliffs and attacking him for both. And, IMO, you're kinda being a dick just because Cliff doesn't like something you do.
As an aside, my hardware sure seems to be fine, it's back up and running after the full reinstall. The AMD drivers seem to be causing me some issues (long black screens at boot, black screen on wake issues, etc.) but that is probably due to the odd AMD hybrid card in this laptop and the fact that stupid HP has decided not to release any Windows 10 drivers for it, only 7 and 8 drivers. Using the Win 8 driver for the card causes all kinds of other problems (lots of program crashes). I'm also having odd issues where Windows will randomly decide for a few minutes that it doesn't have an Internet connection even when it does, not sure what the hell that's all about.
You're right about the hardware concern. I scrolled a little further than intended and read the wrong text. For that, I apologize.
As for being a dick because someone dislikes something I like, that's entirely untrue. Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but making sweeping generalizations about the competence of the people working at a company based on an experience with one or two PCs and a demographic that can barely work a mouse most the time is just silly.
And the lawyer comment is exactly the bullshit that everyone spouts about Microsoft. It's the same horse. Stop beating it. Yeah, Microsoft has money and lawyers. Obviously they're doing something right. You're still using their OS.
I won't even respond to the white knight comment.
@Cyclonite your assumptions about me could not be less accurate.
I went in wanting to adore the upgrade process. I wanted to praise Microsoft for recognizing and dealing with the horrendous failure that was Windows 8 by being fair to their customers offering a free upgrade.
After over 100 documented upgrades (see experience) I have come to the conclusion that Microsoft's delivery is antiquated. You can't competently deploy new software for a hardware base this wide and varied and expect a good experience for your users. The constant updates... The flaws out of the gate after testing the OS live for many months. It's inexcusable. Imagine being a PC owner with little technical experience, running your upgrade as Microsoft promised was ready for you to reboot your machine to be greeted to flashing screen that won't allow you to enter any input between blinks (I have documented this seven times). Sound driver failure... Four times.... Printer failure due to either a driver or the print manager deciding to just reset to port because you obviously know how to reset that properly... I have lost count have to go back over my notes.... Failures to authenticate your Office 365 subscription though completely valid because a user got confused by the tie in to that specific Microsoft account. Firefox no longer the default and crashing the PC when attempting to stream video. Sure for guys like us we say okay let's install the latest version of Firefox and set it to default.... Most people just want something that works. A real upgrade not something new to wrestle with.
I'm basing my information on experience in the real world with real home computer users... Fyi my side buisiness isn't just seniors so I have a pretty good sample size dealing with this... In fact I'd bet of anyone in this discussion I have had more real life experience with Windows 10 upgrades than anyone at this point. Doing your homework and knowing how to manipulate it from under the hood may make us experts but should it require an expert to enjoy using a computer?
Microsoft's methods are not as effective at delivering a consistent users experience vs. Cloud based computing and more tightly controlled "ecosystems"...
I do not like that. I wish it wasn't the case but without guys like us to put the chewing gum and duck tape on, Windows would be dead. It feels old, antiquated, a dinosaur in a world that is constantly moving forward.
You think constantly updating locally in the age of broadband is progress? Do you think trying to push updates against a minimum spec dual core with 2GB of DDR2 that someone got in 2009 to then totally tank performance is progress...Damn is supporting an update for dated X86 at all progress? I'm appauled they released a 32 bit version honestly.
It's all to get as wide an install base as possible. It isn't about driving computing forward.
All the free upgrade is about is maintaining the market share, playing defense against Google on the mind share portion by resetting your browser default out of the box. It's about holding onto the past, the old way of doing thing's. Just adding a couple neat tricks to the UI that your competitors have already done isn't innovative....
And if the upgrade doesn't just plain work out of the gate it's a failure to that user...
I want free Windows 10 to drive computing forward... In my experience it's slick marketing to keep people from ever considerig other options that might be better for them.
In my experience, only Apple operating systems have worked in the manner I expected and intended when I upgrade them. Of course, that's not as challenging of a problem when your company controls all the hardware platforms they have to run on.
Windows 10 has so far been one of the less painful experiences I've had in upgrading a PC operating system. There are aspects of it which I don't care for but the core experience has worked out alright. It turns on, it loads my software, it hasn't deleted my stuff, and the the government hasn't come for me. Networking even works! I have not attempted to print anything but even if it didn't work I wouldn't hold the OS accountable; printer manufacturers have been obfuscating their driver interfaces for at least the past 20 years in an effort to get you to buy a new printer with your ink or toner cartridges. The last printer I had which didn't do that was the original HP DeskWriter.
Things that could be better include,
1. Tablet handwriting recognition data entry. I have a ThinkPad X220t, the one with the rotatable Wacom digitizer tablet built in. Using the pen to do form entry in Adobe Reader loses the handwritten input when I write though it seems to work in Notepad. Maybe an Adobe issue; didn't they get a pre-release to test?
2. Start menu hasn't been usable since Windows 7. I've taken to clicking on the Windows icon and typing what I'm looking for because hierarchical display of installed software is apparently out of vogue. Hope I know what the installer named it.
3. Java doesn't work anymore; both Chrome and Edge don't support it by conscious decision. Internet Explorer does but it still wants to give me half a dozen user prompts every time I start it. Thanks Oracle!
I would most certainly not hold up Ubuntu as any kind of example of what OS upgrades should be like. Regular kernel patches regularly cause it to crap the bed and be unbootable.
I'd like to see the breakdown of problems according to categories like "OEM Crapbox loaded with tons of adware to keep costs down" vs "OEM midrange with minimal crapware" vs "Clean OEM (business line)" vs "Retail/self-install".
I'm going to go on a wild guess that the first two categories will suffer the greatest issues with upgrading.
Anything that comes with WildTangent games preinstalled simply can't be blamed on MS.
Not saying this hasn't happened in the past, but is that really the case recently? Did it really ever happen with any frequency? (I'm honestly asking, as I haven't used Ubuntu in a while, but I haven't had any such issues on Arch for years and it gets way more frequent kernel updates than Ubuntu)
There is a major issue though with this comparison... when a Linux kernel update has an issue, you can just select to boot into the old kernel, at least on most distros, Ubuntu included. When a Windows update trashes your system, it's frequently much harder to fix it assuming you can fix it at all without reinstalling, as I had to. I've never had a bum kernel upgrade in any Linux distro take my box out of commission for a full 24 hour period. Whatever the hell happened to Windows 10 on my laptop did just that. Took a whole day of trying to get their various rollback and revert methods to work and then finally grabbing my Win 10 DVD and just doing a clean install. It's still not completely back, as there are things that I haven't reinstalled yet.
Credit where credit is due, the only issue I've had with the upgrade on my desktop so far is the graphics driver crashing in XCOM pretty regularly (about once every half hour of playtime or so). Of course, that's probably @Thrax's fault, and not Windows.
In all my years of using Windows, a Windows update has never tanked my system. I didn't even know that could happen.
Then you've been lucky, over the years I've had all kinds of issues from Windows updates, from introducing issues that kill performance all the way up to the most recent one which rendered my system unusable until I reimaged it.
Or you've just been unlucky. Tricky thing about those anecdotes.
I had one Win10 update break my system. Thankfully it was on the way home from Expo and not during. Win10 decided to update a video driver...during the update my system blue screened (or whatever the sad face thing is). After that, there was nothing but boot loops. Sadly the USB stick I had with me contained a Win10 build too old to act as a recovery device - and it was the most recent Microsoft had officially provided at the time.
Aside from that everything has gone well.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS is the enterprise OS of choice in these parts and I definitely deal with this issue a few times a year. The typical response is to just flag the kernel as frozen to avoid this, setting aside a day every couple of months to deal with botched GRUB2 configs and modpost builds by the kernel upgrade scripts.
I recall it being not uncommon when I used ME and happened a couple of times with XP. The solution in both cases was boot into safe mode and update all the drivers, then run Windows Update to get the patch patch. I haven't had that happen to me in recent memory.
If you manage enough machines, you're going to bump into every edge and corner case eventually. Those cases have just been far more harsh to me with Windows boxes lately. With the possible exception of OpenSUSE, that Linux distro has not been nice to me at all.
My most recent one that was 100% definitely a Windows problem (still unsure what the root cause of my Win10 woe was, it could well have been AMD's graphics drivers or something else entirely, though I strongly suspect a Windows update since it happened right after a Windows update reboot) hit all our conference room machines. A crappy update (for Windows 7) caused Windows Update service to start consuming all the memory on the systems and go into swap hell (granted, they are 2 GB systems, but still, it's just a conference room box, all it needs to do is display the occasional document or presentation). Took me about an hour to suss out what was causing the problem, mostly because of how quickly the systems would go more or less unresponsive. Then I had to get the standalone hotfix, because the nature of the bug caused the automatic update that was supposed to fix the problem to never be able to complete as the system would just go into swap hell and be unable to do anything, and manually install it on the affected machines immediately after a reboot, before the Windows Update Service could gobble up all the RAM. That was a fun afternoon.
I'm not trying to say my anecdotes are the case all or even the majority of the time. But neither are the anecdotes about everything being happy sunshine and rainbows. The truth, as always, is somewhere in the gray area in between. Pretending like the bad things never happen and everything is perfect just gives the developers license to not fix or improve things. Flinging mud at people for pointing out shortcomings and problems doesn't help anything.
I have installed Windows 10 on nine computers. A 4 year old Lenovo Dual core ATOM CPU, a 6 year old Lenovo with first gen Intel Core i3 (dual core) w/ 4 GB or RAM. I've installed it on a 2 year old HP Envy with Atom CPU. I've installed it on a Toshiba Protege Z10t (Core i5). I've installed it on four custom built gaming PCs with 2+ years ago parts. I've also installed it on Surface Pro 3 (Dual Core i7). No issues on any of them. The old Lenovo's run better than they did under Windows 7 and it is noticeable. Power savings on the laptops is better, less resources are being gobbled up...
Update> @mertesn said:
You know except for that time that a Windows update sent everything into a never-ending reboot loop...., it's all good otherwise....
I think some of us are too Windows hardened to acknowledge what the experience must be like for the run of the mill user. Guys like us can have a problem and barely perceive it as one because for us it's such a minor thing to just do a little adjustment. We may not even notice or document it in our heads. Now that I'm working in an environment that pretty much forces me to think just the average computer user it has changed my entire perspective. I just can't be a Windows shill anymore. Microsoft's methods are antiquated.
And @Thrax you know the difference between lucky and unlucky in the windows update business. For those of us that recall the AMD Omega launch and how a certain Windows update broke everything (let me jog your memory, you are quoted in this article) -http://www.pcworld.com/article/2859120/windows-7-users-urged-to-uninstall-broken-update-that-wreaks-havoc-on-software.html .... Don't pretend you don't know windows updates have a tendency to break stuff because you have a mild case of Windows 10 obsession.
Regardless of the fact that I'm the most objective and reasonable man here
- I'm actually thrilled a little real technology discussion is going on here. All it took was me getting a little irritated. 
I admire your dedication to shitposting. Going back 8* months in my Twitter archive so you could misconstrue a single tweet as a "tendency". That's great.
//edit: a math
//edit: this comment refers to Cliff's now-missing post of this article. I accidentally missed this post in the thread split, and IC Vanilla does not support merging, so I removed the post to keep continuity correct. This edit provides the necessary context for Cliff's post below.
Windows is good and bad because reasons. Most of us use it for something or another and have different experiences. Some of us have used it longer than others. Neat.
Any questions for Thrax about Windows 10 then?
You issued that tweet 264 days ago.... Not 20 months.
Thats something called factual data.... You know, not annecdotal in any capacity.
Look, I get it, you adore Windows because you enjoy the beta culture. If things were not a challenge or just a general mess you wouldn't be happy. It's just your thing. You dig busted stuff. You want to tinker, you need to tinker.
I'm just supplying a different point of view. That doesn't make me a "shitposter" just someone with different experience. I should think you might be grateful for my experience to provide a wider understanding of the Windows 10 launch process. If something I say is contrary to what you envisioned I'm not sure why I get labeled, told to "get over myself" called a "shit poster". I suppose I should expect that kind of sophomoric insult here?
Anyway, I'm simply offering evidence that Windows Updates are mostly a bad thing. Noboby wants to wait for them. When they are not tieing up your computer they simply came along to patch bugs and cover up security holes, very rarely is a Windows update a value add for the users, more often than not its just chewing gum and duck tape for Windows. And yes, sometimes an update even comes along and breaks your computer. Why is it a crime to say that local Windows updates suck? Are you that indoctrinated by the Microsoft cult that you can't think outside the always in beta box?
Ahhh. Old Icrontic rears its head
Except older and more sensitive than a remember.
/grabs popcorn
I should have come off the SSRI a long time ago. Icrontic needs my angst.
Yes, just that one problem while it was in a non-RTM state in June. This is perfectly acceptable - it's part of the risk of playing with the toys before they're released to our parents who remember when color TV was invented.
So we have one example of an update breaking something in the hundreds of updates that have been pushed. I'm sure there are more, but I'm stirring the embers. I understand the frustration.
The facts are that Linux is still not a good substitution for your so called "average" user. That world is still not user friendly and doesn't offer the same hardware support that Windows does. You can't argue that fact at all.
So then we have OSX. I love OSX. I run it at work and on my main rig. It has faults though. Try to show your hidden files. I dare you. Uninstall an app? You can delete it from the app folder, but that doesn't really mean that all the stuff is gone. What about broken disk permissions on the system drive? I have to do a permission repair to get things like Logitech Control Center to detect my mouse. It's a Kext problem or some folder gains the wrong permission after an OSX update. OSX is pretty on the outside, but as soon as something breaks your stuck with what it is. Unix. An unfriendly tangle of terminal commands and the unknown. Then you have the cost of owning a Mac and the now inability to upgrade hardware or fix a broken machine. I'll stick with my PC, I'll take Windows over everything else and I'll continue to recommend it to everyone who wants a computer that just plain works.
**Disclaimer. All of my OSX issues listed above happen on a Mac Pro 2012 running what ever the current OS is at that time. Has 100% Apple hardware and no unsupported parts.
@Sonorous Not that it's relevant, but there are whole corners of the web devoted to fixing the vast number of issues that spring out of Windows update. For example, a software tool specifically designed to automatically troubleshoot update issues - https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/971058 - TLDR, Windows update sucks.
Anyhow, I agree that Linux is a niche thing. There are a couple companies that do make specific Ubuntu pre loaded and tested compatible hardware. Linux is all over the place, it isn't focused enough. That is both the beauty and it's biggest flaw. I saw a youtube video once of someone going into detail at a Linux convention on why the community needs to just kill off some old distros and declare Ubuntu the winner for the desktop side, and the open source boos and gasps and hisses as mega nerds defend and cling onto their favorite distros until their dying breath. That's the issue with Linux, all that wasted human capital on distros that are never going to gain any traction. That said, A lot of good has come from it, just not so much as a consumer desktop OS, you look at what Google has done with it not just android on the consumer side, but Google literally runs on Linux. You see Valve making an investment in it. Amazon too, Hell CERN found the "God Particle" using Linux software, you just can't do that shit on Windows... http://www.computerworld.com/article/2468248/high-performance-computing/high-energy-linux--linux---the-large-hadron-collider.html
Moving on to OSX...., the thing about OSX isn't so much that OSX is brilliant as much as Apple being brilliant in controlling their users experience. At one time I was 100% against this methodology but in the last year or so as I have touched more and more Apple hardware I'm starting to see the method. It's control, it's knowing I have this spec, and this software always runs fine on this spec with this group of features. They don't need a year long beta with users, they just take a handful of tightly controlled hardware specs and test them with engineers in house. When it is released it is ready. They know it is. They just know it's going to work. There are not as many curve balls. Windows engineers are trying to hit a Phil Niekro knuckleball, they have no idea where it is going.
Now, my current love affair with consumer desktop operating systems is with Chrome OS. I know, I know... It's not nearly as powerful or feature laden today. It isn't compatible with this or that peripheral, setting up cloud printing is kind of weird, I have to trust Google to stay afloat to deliver my services... There are all those drawbacks, but when you see the delivery, how fast it is, how the web just works for your day to day user, without any hiccups, without waiting for updates to load, without mounds of security software to protect your local resources, how you press power and ten seconds later you are ready to do a web search.... When you see this you have to scratch your head and wonder how Microsoft, the same company that has successfully figured out a way to milk more revenue from a word processing program every year, can't figure out that this is the future of consumer desktop computing? That is what gets to me. Windows 10 feels more like a platform for continued desktop control than it does an innovation in computing. I don't hate it, I'm just disappointed by it.
Linux may be a niche thing, but with the right support behind it they're perfectly acceptable for the "average user". If not, how do you explain the fact that Chromebooks (which are just Linux with a Google Chrome paintjob) are outselling Windows laptops? http://www.zdnet.com/article/npd-chromebooks-outsell-windows-laptops/
Also, Android is just Linux with a layer of sugar on top and it's king in the mobile space.
Linux isn't good enough doesn't stand up to the data any more. Install it yourself Linux will always be a niche market (any install it yourself OS will be), but Linux powered out of the box solutions are every bit as capable of being "average user" friendly as anything else.
As for Windows 10, it's fine as Windows goes. The only point I was ever trying to make was that it isn't perfect (nothing is) and acting like it is perfect is disingenuous. Attacking Cliff for ranting about something vociferously is like attacking the sun for rising in the east, or attacking Steve Ballmer for sweating too much.
I am 170% sure the price of a Chromebook, vs the horde of people who are scorned by advice givers like us for wanting to buy a $250 laptop, has abosulty nothing to do with influx of Chromebook sales.
2005 called, they want their trope back.
(also and more importantly
)
While I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment, your examples are issues facing us powerusers, not Cliff's referenced sexagenarian demographic. (Not that I'd cede the point for powerusers obviously but that's a different, far more tired thread.)