I don't know if you can find them in Sweden, but i like AMS cases. Their high-end aluminum cases have 120mm spots in the front and back, clean lines and a fair price. Not sure about the rubber grommets for hdd's though, but you can always get those from a hardware store. The descrption below says 120mm rear, and 80/92mm front, but you can fit a 120 mm in the front with a little work........
I've been thinking. What would it take to make a chieftec da or dx cases and their clones well cooled using only silent fans. How many fans would you need for each case and would it be enough. It seems that dx,da cases regardless if they're called Antec, chieftec, directron, aopen or whatever are easy to find in many parts of the world. Therefor if we want to make a guide about quiet pc:s we should use something that everyone can find.
So geeky, you seem to know alot about cooling, what do you think about this both from an oc standpoint and for users running stock but still using modern powerhungry (hot) components.
BTW ryko, aluminium cases might not be good for silence since they weighs less and can therefor rattle. Or so i've heard. AMS cases look nice though.
Ok here goes. What kind of cooling would one get using quiet fans in all fanholders like i said before.
In a dx (midtower) that would be: with 80mm Papst 8412NGL 19,4cfm
In: 19,4x2 = 38.8 cfm
out: the same + whatever the psu draws.
with 80mm Panaflo L1A 24 cfm
In: 24x2 = 48
Out: the same + whatever the psu draws.
In a da (fulltower) that would be: with 80mm Papst 8412NGL 19,4cfm + 92mm Papst 3412N/2GL 35,9 cfm Can't find a 92mm panaflo.
In: 19,4x3 = 58,2
Out: 19,4x3 = 58,2 + 35 = 93,2 + whatever the psu draws.
Looks like we have a winner. But would all those fans really be neccecary and can someone please calculate the noice such system would make. I'm not sure how to do it. Personly i would skip the 92mm fan on both cases and just switch to a psu with a 120mm fan. That would prolly be enough.
Low??? That configuration would blow more then a sonata with a added front fan and few have compalined about that.
BTW my current rig is cooled by nothing more than the cpu fan and only the psufan is pulling air through the case. If i where to switch case and add all those fans i would get something like 10 times the cooling i have now so i really do think that my suggested config would cool even modern cpus well enough.
Sorry if i sound angry but i have really hard to understand how so much cooling could be required since i base my thoughts from the reference case design by AMD. It only says that there should be one casefan in the rear, maybe one the the front and a psu drawing air through the case. Well and a good cpucooler like the stock one.
I've also seen reviews of the sonata case where modern systems have been put into it without burning up. Even though the temps weren't the best they were still within specs.
So cooling modern rigs quietly really is impossible then because even if you use a slk 9xx on the cpu, you still have to add enough casefans to start a tornado. To bad i'm into gaming otherwise i would consider a Mini-ItX system.
I did an experiment a long time ago. I took a heatsink and brazed on a pipe to blow into the fins. The pipe directed air in a concentrated area. Then I hooked a scuba tank to the pipe.
That's 80 cubic feet of air at 3000 PSI.
Powered up the PC and cranked on the air. Shrill air noise for sure. So what happened?
Not bloody much.
You would expect that the high volume of air blowing into the fins like a 30,000 RPM fan blowing 500 CFM would have a huge effect. It didn't.
So then I helped build a PC case with 1708 CFM of airflow (Theoretical). 21 fans this puppy had. 11 of them were 120 mm. fans.
What did this show? Well it did have an affect of keeping the idle and load temps pretty close to each other but the temperature overall of both mobo and cpu stayed near to ambient room.
So what did I learn?
Shoving a whole lot of air into one single concentrated area; like a high rpm high noise fan on the heatsink doesn't have a dramatic affect.
Moving a whole lot of air through the case overall has a greater affect but ambient room temperature is pretty well the floor. To get through the floor you need artifically enhanced cooling such as a peltier.
So it is a better balance to remove the heat from the case with low RPM high volume fans and back off the CPU fan RPM (and thus noise). Optimally it would be best to add a 120 mm. fan that spins at a lower RPM as a rear exhaust.
Start with that.
This removes the warm air from the PC case. Cool air will find its way in. The cooler air passes over the warm components and the heat is transferred from the warm components to the air and thus out of the case. Therefore the heatsink cooling fan benefits because it is pushing cooler air into the heatsink. Temperatures drop slightly.
The lower RPM 120 means lower noise.
Don't have room for a 120? Try two low RPM 90s or 80s. Each fan exhausts a fixed CFM but together...it may not be double but it is more. Again...they are lower noise (lower RPM).
Secondly...try the blowhole...this works well in comibination with the rear exhausts.
Adding a front intake doesn't have a dramatic affect...except if you want to mod a front scoop so that would make it a dramatic visual effect if anything.
Read this for examples of configurations and their results.
Let me see, sound from combined sources....
Convert dB into sound energy. energy=10^(dB/10) 20dB=10^2, 30dB=10^3
Add all of the energy values together.
Reconvert to dB=10 x log(energy)
This doesn't strictly apply to a computer case since the fans don't all contribute their full sound. Some are inside and some are in the back. But as a first pass this will give you a worst case value.
example: one fan, 32dB
three identical fans, 32dB = 1585; 3 x 1585 = 4755; log4755=3.68; combined sound = 36.8dB
You might want to check out CoolCases. Mtgoat posted that link in a thread I started about fabricating a case to fit several 120 mm fans. That site seems to have done all the hard work. Definetly worth checking out.
Don't forget i'm in sweden. On the site when i tried calculating shipping cost, the only options where ups ground which doesn't work outside the US which made me believe that coolcases doesn't either. Tobad since they seem nice. Perhaps i should try to make something out of it with what stores i have. BTW it looks like i'm close to ordering so fast answers are appreciated.
Well it could take days to weeks. My mom wont give me a defenitive answer on that hence why i seem so uncertain.
Screwless front and rear 'hold-fast' brackets for optional 2 x 120mm internal case fans (fans not supplied)
Note: the internal fan brackets can accommodate 120 x 120 x 25mm case fans - we recommend using near-silent cooling fans if extra cooling is necessary, such as the 120mm AcoustiFan? (AF120CT
I would be weary of those sound-absorbtion mats that are all over those cases.....they might dampen the sound, but they also make temps increase greatly.
I tried acoustic absorbtion mats last year in order to get an aliuminum raidmax case quiet, but case temps were 10+ C degrees hotter than normal. Just something to consider before purchasing...........
I also realized something. SPCR said that the case is mostly just a modded slk3700 and i must agree. I wonder if it's worth it considering the cost of not only the case but also a psu. Yet airflow does look better. Hmm i'll need more feedback on this.
Yeah, i would just mod a case by yourself. You will need a dremel tool, but they are relitively inexpensive and tons of fun!
The money you save on a regular case could be used towards better components or a dremel if you don't already have one.
0
Geeky1University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
edited April 2004
How's the airflow in that AcoustiCase/SLK-3700/whatever-you-want-to-call-it?
In a word:
Crappy.
Really, really crappy. REEEEALLY crappy. I've got one. I've FINALLY managed to get decent cooling out of it. What did it take to do that? 2 120mm fans on the side panel (131 & 90cfm, respectively), 2 80mm fans on the top (Vantec Stealths- too lazy to change them), and 2 90cfm fans in the stock mounts with the grills removed.
If you do NO OVERCLOCKING AT ALL and have a really good HSF on the CPU, you might be able to get away with a high-end athlon or p4 without modifying it, but I tend to doubt it'll handle even that.
I agree with ryko, those sound absorbing mats are not really worth the money. And I also agree with him about modding your own case. Cutting up your own case to put things where you want, RULES!!
Dragstk
How's the airflow in that AcoustiCase/SLK-3700/whatever-you-want-to-call-it?
In a word:
Crappy.
Really, really crappy. REEEEALLY crappy. I've got one. I've FINALLY managed to get decent cooling out of it. What did it take to do that? 2 120mm fans on the side panel (131 & 90cfm, respectively), 2 80mm fans on the top (Vantec Stealths- too lazy to change them), and 2 90cfm fans in the stock mounts with the grills removed.
If you do NO OVERCLOCKING AT ALL and have a really good HSF on the CPU, you might be able to get away with a high-end athlon or p4 without modifying it, but I tend to doubt it'll handle even that.
Usually after you write a post like that i get angry and bash at you for strange reasons but not anymore. During the weeks and month i've spend looking into cooling and then silent cooling i've concluded that there is no case that offers great cooling at a low volume therefor something has to give.
Watercooling is both expensive, slightly to risky for my taste and defently not something i want to handle in my first selfbuilt rig. So i'll go for silence and hope that i wont have to mod the case to soon. I'll take my chances with the sonata as should anyone looking into silence though i realize that i might have to mod it in the future.
Best way to handle cases like that would prolly be to install a frontfan as well even though tests have shown that doing so only cooles the harddrives more but not much of the rest of the case. At least you've got all airflow you can get in it. I'll defently be running mbm when i get the rig so i'll know if things turn bad.
So to conclude this thread:
Want silence and hardcore gaming? Either mod or watercool.
Want silence: Mini-itx.
Don't care about silence: Use whatever you want.
Here's a handy way to calculate the db increase on identical fans...it holds true for speakers as well, for the increase of 3db double the number of fans, i.e.; 1 fan at 25db, 2 identical fans at 25db ea. = 28db, 4 identical fans at 25db ea = 31db ect. ect.
There are variations due to the resonance of the enclosure, mounting, reflective or dead (acoustically, not biologically) surfaces near the item and so on but it's a handy rule to go by to get a rough idea when calculating what your approximate acoustical output will be.
If you're going to add a larger fan then it may be a bit higher than 3db if the fans are close in overall volume acoustically and having the rpm's of the respecive fans at a different speed might cause a harmonic which could either accentuate or attentuate the outputs of the fans acoustically depending on such things as whether or not the sound waves from the harmonic reinforce or cancel each other due to phase variances.
I hope that this is understandable but it's pretty much a truth.
What you're saying is that adding fans adds noice. No argument there. Now i'll chock geeky by saing that i'll run both fans on the fanonly connectors which i believe only put out about 7 volts unless the temps get to high. Well at least the rear one since it's quite windy but the other will be a papst so it should prolly be run on 12.
Comments
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-180-015&depa=0
Here's the cheaper steel version which has 2 80mm's in the back and room for a 120mm up front.......you could probably mod it for 2 x 120mm
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-180-017&depa=0
I think you can buy direct from their site too.....http://www.amselectronics.com
I've been thinking. What would it take to make a chieftec da or dx cases and their clones well cooled using only silent fans. How many fans would you need for each case and would it be enough. It seems that dx,da cases regardless if they're called Antec, chieftec, directron, aopen or whatever are easy to find in many parts of the world. Therefor if we want to make a guide about quiet pc:s we should use something that everyone can find.
So geeky, you seem to know alot about cooling, what do you think about this both from an oc standpoint and for users running stock but still using modern powerhungry (hot) components.
BTW ryko, aluminium cases might not be good for silence since they weighs less and can therefor rattle. Or so i've heard. AMS cases look nice though.
In a dx (midtower) that would be: with 80mm Papst 8412NGL 19,4cfm
In: 19,4x2 = 38.8 cfm
out: the same + whatever the psu draws.
with 80mm Panaflo L1A 24 cfm
In: 24x2 = 48
Out: the same + whatever the psu draws.
In a da (fulltower) that would be: with 80mm Papst 8412NGL 19,4cfm + 92mm Papst 3412N/2GL 35,9 cfm Can't find a 92mm panaflo.
In: 19,4x3 = 58,2
Out: 19,4x3 = 58,2 + 35 = 93,2 + whatever the psu draws.
with 80mm Panaflo L1A 24 cfm + 92mm Papst 3412N/2GL 35,9 cfm
In: 24x3 = 72
Out: 72 + 35 = 107 + whatever the psu draws.
Looks like we have a winner. But would all those fans really be neccecary and can someone please calculate the noice such system would make. I'm not sure how to do it. Personly i would skip the 92mm fan on both cases and just switch to a psu with a 120mm fan. That would prolly be enough.
Thoughts and ideas are welcome.
BTW my current rig is cooled by nothing more than the cpu fan and only the psufan is pulling air through the case. If i where to switch case and add all those fans i would get something like 10 times the cooling i have now so i really do think that my suggested config would cool even modern cpus well enough.
Sorry if i sound angry but i have really hard to understand how so much cooling could be required since i base my thoughts from the reference case design by AMD. It only says that there should be one casefan in the rear, maybe one the the front and a psu drawing air through the case. Well and a good cpucooler like the stock one.
I've also seen reviews of the sonata case where modern systems have been put into it without burning up. Even though the temps weren't the best they were still within specs.
So cooling modern rigs quietly really is impossible then because even if you use a slk 9xx on the cpu, you still have to add enough casefans to start a tornado. To bad i'm into gaming otherwise i would consider a Mini-ItX system.
no.
I did an experiment a long time ago. I took a heatsink and brazed on a pipe to blow into the fins. The pipe directed air in a concentrated area. Then I hooked a scuba tank to the pipe.
That's 80 cubic feet of air at 3000 PSI.
Powered up the PC and cranked on the air. Shrill air noise for sure. So what happened?
Not bloody much.
You would expect that the high volume of air blowing into the fins like a 30,000 RPM fan blowing 500 CFM would have a huge effect. It didn't.
So then I helped build a PC case with 1708 CFM of airflow (Theoretical). 21 fans this puppy had. 11 of them were 120 mm. fans.
http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=214
What did this show? Well it did have an affect of keeping the idle and load temps pretty close to each other but the temperature overall of both mobo and cpu stayed near to ambient room.
So what did I learn?
Shoving a whole lot of air into one single concentrated area; like a high rpm high noise fan on the heatsink doesn't have a dramatic affect.
Moving a whole lot of air through the case overall has a greater affect but ambient room temperature is pretty well the floor. To get through the floor you need artifically enhanced cooling such as a peltier.
So it is a better balance to remove the heat from the case with low RPM high volume fans and back off the CPU fan RPM (and thus noise). Optimally it would be best to add a 120 mm. fan that spins at a lower RPM as a rear exhaust.
Start with that.
This removes the warm air from the PC case. Cool air will find its way in. The cooler air passes over the warm components and the heat is transferred from the warm components to the air and thus out of the case. Therefore the heatsink cooling fan benefits because it is pushing cooler air into the heatsink. Temperatures drop slightly.
The lower RPM 120 means lower noise.
Don't have room for a 120? Try two low RPM 90s or 80s. Each fan exhausts a fixed CFM but together...it may not be double but it is more. Again...they are lower noise (lower RPM).
Secondly...try the blowhole...this works well in comibination with the rear exhausts.
Adding a front intake doesn't have a dramatic affect...except if you want to mod a front scoop so that would make it a dramatic visual effect if anything.
Read this for examples of configurations and their results.
http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=230
It's a matter of balance. My dual processor rig has 2 x 120 (rear exhaust and side intake), 2 x 80 rear, 2 x 80 intake and 2 x 80 on the heatsinks.
All of them are hooked up to a Rheobus. I usually leave them very low all the time and the noise level is, I'd approximate, 22-25 dB.
Hope this helps.
Convert dB into sound energy. energy=10^(dB/10) 20dB=10^2, 30dB=10^3
Add all of the energy values together.
Reconvert to dB=10 x log(energy)
This doesn't strictly apply to a computer case since the fans don't all contribute their full sound. Some are inside and some are in the back. But as a first pass this will give you a worst case value.
example: one fan, 32dB
three identical fans, 32dB = 1585; 3 x 1585 = 4755; log4755=3.68; combined sound = 36.8dB
They can take two 80s in the rear. Don't have low RPM 80s? Get a rheobus and now you have ultimate control.
Well it could take days to weeks. My mom wont give me a defenitive answer on that hence why i seem so uncertain.
http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/acousticase.asp
Hows the airflow on it. Seems better then the sonata but what do i know. Unfortunatly it doesn't come with a psu so i'll have to find a good one.
Looks pretty good. I couldn't find an answer on the site, is that a spot for a 120 mm fan in the front as well? It looks like it from the pic.
I tried acoustic absorbtion mats last year in order to get an aliuminum raidmax case quiet, but case temps were 10+ C degrees hotter than normal. Just something to consider before purchasing...........
The money you save on a regular case could be used towards better components or a dremel if you don't already have one.
In a word:
Crappy.
Really, really crappy. REEEEALLY crappy. I've got one. I've FINALLY managed to get decent cooling out of it. What did it take to do that? 2 120mm fans on the side panel (131 & 90cfm, respectively), 2 80mm fans on the top (Vantec Stealths- too lazy to change them), and 2 90cfm fans in the stock mounts with the grills removed.
If you do NO OVERCLOCKING AT ALL and have a really good HSF on the CPU, you might be able to get away with a high-end athlon or p4 without modifying it, but I tend to doubt it'll handle even that.
Dragstk
Usually after you write a post like that i get angry and bash at you for strange reasons but not anymore. During the weeks and month i've spend looking into cooling and then silent cooling i've concluded that there is no case that offers great cooling at a low volume therefor something has to give.
Watercooling is both expensive, slightly to risky for my taste and defently not something i want to handle in my first selfbuilt rig. So i'll go for silence and hope that i wont have to mod the case to soon. I'll take my chances with the sonata as should anyone looking into silence though i realize that i might have to mod it in the future.
Best way to handle cases like that would prolly be to install a frontfan as well even though tests have shown that doing so only cooles the harddrives more but not much of the rest of the case. At least you've got all airflow you can get in it. I'll defently be running mbm when i get the rig so i'll know if things turn bad.
So to conclude this thread:
Want silence and hardcore gaming? Either mod or watercool.
Want silence: Mini-itx.
Don't care about silence: Use whatever you want.
Any other conclusions?
There are variations due to the resonance of the enclosure, mounting, reflective or dead (acoustically, not biologically) surfaces near the item and so on but it's a handy rule to go by to get a rough idea when calculating what your approximate acoustical output will be.
If you're going to add a larger fan then it may be a bit higher than 3db if the fans are close in overall volume acoustically and having the rpm's of the respecive fans at a different speed might cause a harmonic which could either accentuate or attentuate the outputs of the fans acoustically depending on such things as whether or not the sound waves from the harmonic reinforce or cancel each other due to phase variances.
I hope that this is understandable but it's pretty much a truth.