Overclocking problem

CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
edited November 2005 in Hardware
Hi. I have a P4 3Mhz PC that according to the info I have, can be OC'd by 30% or to 3.6Mhz.
Motherboard is an AsusTek P4P800-X. CPU by Intel. Bios from American Megatrends, version 080009.
1Gig DDR RAM, 80 Gig HD. ATI Radeon 9200 128Mb series Graphics.
I have just OC'd it to 3.3 by setting the clock speed to 220. The other settings are set to Auto. I have the option to choose by percentage in the BIOS in increments of 5%, but when I attempt to go over 5% the PC will not boot, that is why I adjusted the clock.
PC boots and runs fine, temps are 47C MB and 32C CPU.
Problem I am having is that when I try to play Ghost Recon, the PC crashes. Tried it twice and I only get a few minutes of game time.

I am a complete newby as far as this goes, so if anyone can give me some simple advice, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.
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Comments

  • GrayFoxGrayFox /dev/urandom Member
    edited September 2005
    Your overclock is unstable learn how to overclock it correctly (setting everything manualy) or don't overclock.
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    I'm not an intel overclocking expert by any means, but since it is multi-locked, and you are increasing the FSB to 220 to overclock, your memory frequency will increase proportionally with the FSB. You may actually be hitting the limits of your ram, and that could cause the types of instabilities that you have mentioned. The first thing I would try is to run a few loops of Memtest86+ with your 220MHz FSB. My guess is that you'll get some errors popping up.

    I believe the P4 platforms allow you to run your memory async (i.e. on a divider) so that it actually runs a little slower than your FSB. One of the intel experts here could probably give you more information on running the memory async.

    Could you be more specific about the type of memory that you have in your system? brand, model etc?

    Vcore (CPU voltage) could also be another factor you should look at. You may want to increase that just a touch as well (assuming your memory is not the issue).
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    Thanks. Will get Memtest and check it out. PC is only a few months old though, so don't know if it will be that or not :).
    Will have to dig up the Memory brand etc.
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    Crunchie wrote:
    Thanks. Will get Memtest and check it out. PC is only a few months old though, so don't know if it will be that or not :).
    Will have to dig up the Memory brand etc.

    Memtest is not only good for detecting 'bad' memory, but also memory that is unstable due to being run out of spec. Since you are running a 220MHz FSB, your memory is also likely running at 220MHz, which could explain the instability..

    Prime did a good memtest guide that you can find here: http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=276

    It gives you links to some bootable ISOs etc


    Let us know what you find :thumbsup:
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    Ran the test at 220FSB and got the following; (BTW, the multiplier is 15)

    Tst = 2

    Pass = 0

    Failing address = 000000468e4 - 0.3MB

    Good = ffffffff

    Bad = fffbffff

    Err-Bits = 00040000

    Count = 1



    I haven't a clue what it means :).

    Ran the test again after setting the FSB to 219 and got no errors.

    Does this mean that my physical RAM cannot handle the faster specs?

    EDIT. Got this from Everest;

    Field Value DRAM Slot #1 512 MB (PC3200 DDR SDRAM)

    Field Value DRAM Slot #2 512 MB (PC3200 DDR SDRAM)
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    Yep, that is more than likely what the issue is.. PC3200 memory is not designed to run faster than 200MHz, so you are exceeding it's specifications by 20MHz. There is quite a bit of 'enthusiast' ram on the market that can overclock quite above it's rated frequencies. I'm not too sure what brand etc you have. CPU-Z may get you some more information on your modules if you click the 'SPD' tab. You can find it at www.cpuid.com

    There are things that you can do to address this, including running the ram async. from the bus speed. That way, you can run your FSB at 220MHz (or higher) and keep your ram from exceeding 200MHz. I'm just waiting for an intel expert to chime in here, as the last intel platform I ran was a P3 500 :D .. I'm really not too familiar with your board. It may be listed as a 3/4 divider, or 'DRAM Frequency Set', etc in the bios.

    You can also set your memory timings a little looser, which can also get you some extra headroom. If your ram is a generic brand, your best bet would be to run it async as mentioned above.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    OK, remember that I know very little about this :), but I have just read somewhere that it is ok to change the ratio as you suggested, but not ideal because it can slow down the transfer of data between the two?
    In my BIOS I have an option to change the DRAM but have no idea what it is or what to change it to.
    I read that one can also overclock the RAM by increasing the voltage a little, but I am not sure I want to do that.
    The only cooling I have at the moment is the CPU fan, but I have noticed no increase in temp since going from 200FSB to 219FSB.

    Just ran CPU-Z and no manufacturer came up, just a bunch of zero's. It does say though that the max frequency is 200Mhz.

    I presume that if I purchased DDR500 RAM I would be ok to go further? That would allow me to go to 250FSB yes? According to my system specs I can only go to 240 anyway :).
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    OK. I have since delved into my BIOS again and tried a couple of things.
    DRAM Frequency options in BIOS are; AUTO, 400, 320, 266.
    I set the FSB to 220 again and changed the DRAM to 400 thinking that would keep the speed at that setting. Booted up and found my game still crashed so checked the frequency of both the FSB and the RAM. Both were running at 220.
    Went back into the BIOS and changed the DRAM to 320 which equates to ~176 instead of the CPU frequency of 220, a 5:4 ratio. Game no longer crashes :).

    Question. How will the different frequencies affect the rest of my system? I believe Intel CPU's are more capable of running asynchronous than other manufacturers?

    Thanks for any help/advice.
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    Cool stuff, glad you got the ratio working. I know in the A64 world, there is a next-to-nil performance decrease when using a divider, but I'm not sure of the impact on a P4.

    You can use the following formula to determine just what your memory is running at. Your memory will be operating at about 80% the speed of the FSB.. so we can determine your memory frequency by:

    Memory Clock Speed = FSB * Divider
    Memory Clock Speed = 220 * 4/5
    Memory Clock Speed = 220 * 0.8
    Memory Clock Speed = 176MHz

    You can use CPU-Z to verify this as well, by checking the 'Memory' tab.

    So overall, your memory is running below it's intended specifications. Since your clock speed is higher, I'm not sure if you'll get a big performance gain with the memory running almost 40MHz slower now. BUT now you have a lot more headroom for bigger FSB increases.. You can go up to 250MHz FSB before your memory even runs at it's default 200MHz again. It will all depend on whether your CPU can handle it or not. I'd increase your FSB a little bit at a time, and see how far you can get now.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    Thanks for sticking with me lemonlime :). I appreciate it. Where I changed the DRAM setting to 320, I do not know if that will rise when I change the FSB. I will give it a go, but it's close to bedtime now so will leave it for some time during the week.
    CPU is running at 3300 now with the Bus speed running at 880. According to system specs, I should be able to push it to 3600.

    Get this from CPU-Z;

    Memory Frequency 176.0 MHz (5:4)
    CAS# 2.5
    RAS# to CAS# 3
    RAS# Precharge 3
    Cycle Time (tRAS) 7

    ==

    Running at 200 the Cycle time (tRAS) was 8. All others were the same.

    Anyways, will post back when I make the changes to let you know how I get on.

    A quick question before I go. If I up the voltage to the RAM, will that allow me to run them at a higher frequency? Will it affect the life cycle of any hardware etc.
    I am happy with the way my PC is running at it's default settings, but like the idea of being able to get something extra for no outlay :).

    Thanks again.
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    Crunchie wrote:
    Thanks for sticking with me lemonlime :). I appreciate it. Where I changed the DRAM setting to 320, I do not know if that will rise when I change the FSB. I will give it a go, but it's close to bedtime now so will leave it for some time during the week.
    CPU is running at 3300 now with the Bus speed running at 880. According to system specs, I should be able to push it to 3600.

    Get this from CPU-Z;

    Memory Frequency 176.0 MHz (5:4)
    CAS# 2.5
    RAS# to CAS# 3
    RAS# Precharge 3
    Cycle Time (tRAS) 7

    ==

    Running at 200 the Cycle time (tRAS) was 8. All others were the same.

    Anyways, will post back when I make the changes to let you know how I get on.

    A quick question before I go. If I up the voltage to the RAM, will that allow me to run them at a higher frequency? Will it affect the life cycle of any hardware etc.
    I am happy with the way my PC is running at it's default settings, but like the idea of being able to get something extra for no outlay :).

    Thanks again.


    It's always nice to get 'something for nothing' :D

    If you change the memory divider (i.e. set memory to 320), it will indeed still increase when you increase the FSB. Your system may also automatically set more agressive memory timings when the memory is 'underclocked', as you saw your tras decrease above. You can usually squeeze a little more out of your memory by increasing the CAS timing to 3, as well as the RAS to CAS to 4. There will be a performance decrease as a result however.

    Memory voltage can be weird sometimes. It all depends on the chips (ics) present on your ram. My guess is that your default voltage is 2.6V. You should be able to safely increase it to 2.7 or 2.8V. Check to see how much of a frequency gain you get as a result. You may gain little, if nothing at all, in which case you should bring it back to 2.6 to decrease power consumption and heat. You never know, you may get large frequency gains as a result, it is worth a try. 2.8V will increase the heat a bit, but as long as you have decent case air-flow, you should be fine. 2.8V is pretty much the 'safe' maximum for generic, low voltage memory. I doubt it will impact the life of your components.

    Good luck, let us know how you do :thumbsup:
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited September 2005
    Yep, lemonlime has given you some good advice on overclocking your beast. It's not all that different overclocking a P4 than an AMD machine anyways. Now that you have it set at a 4/5 memory divider, you can go ahead and see what kind of overclock you can get on the processor. On memory in my Intel systems, I just leave the mem voltage set at 2.8-2.85v (the max my boards can do without mods). That isn't high enough to hurt the ram one iota but will give you a little more stability when overclocking. You only have to worry about ram cooling when you start to run it over around 3.1v on the ram.

    Once you find your proc's max stable overclock, you can then start messing with ram timings and see what your ram can run at while at your overclocked speed. If your proc can't make it to 250 fsb, then your ram won't be running quite at 200 MHz, so you might be able to tighten up the ram timings a bit to help compensate for the slower ram speed. BTW, asychronous ram timings don't seem to affect a P4 very much, pretty much like an A64.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    No worries. Thanks a lot guys. I will leave this until the weekend now so I can have a bit more time to play with it :D.
    I appreciate the help.

    BTW. What sort of temps can I expect? Running at 48C for the CPU and 33C for the mobo now. Ambient temp is ~15C. I have the Asus probe that came with the software and it's set to it's defaults. According to those settings the high temp alert doesn't kick in until 70C which seems a little high to me?? I haven't changed those defaults as I presumed it would be preset for my system.
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited September 2005
    What are you running for a hsf for cooling the proc? I believe the Asus boards tend to read the temp diode a little cool, so your actual temps might be a little higher than what is shown. BTW, your board is old enough (the design that is) that MBM should read the monitoring chips just fine, if you don't like Asus Probe.

    Your case temps sound a little high to me compared to your ambient room temp. What kind of case fans do you have in the case? P4's love a nice feed of fresh cool outside air, since they are such beasts at producing heat.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    As I'm such a newbie at this, I am not sure what 'hsf' is, nor MBM, but I can guess the MBM is a monitor, yes?
    The only form of cooling I have at the moment is what came with it. Just the cpu heatsink/fan and what I gather is the power supply fan.

    EDIT. hsf = heat sink fan?
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    Downloaded MBM and it is reading the same temperatures as the Asus probe. I take it that's because it's using the same sensors?
    Is it essential to get a case fan?
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited September 2005
    hsf=Heat Sink Fan, the cooler you are using on the processor.

    With a P4 system, I think you need at least 1 80-92mm case fan in the lower front blowing into the case and at least 1 80-92mm case fan exhausting the case on the rear of your computer. P4's output a bunch of excess heat at even stock speeds, and even more heat when overclocking. Not only do you need to remove the heat from the processor with a very good hsf but you also have to remove that heat from the case too. A good test to see if you have decent airflow in your case is to remove the side off the case and see if the board temps drop significantly (more than 1-2 C temp drop on system temp).
  • Jeff34BuffJeff34Buff Lakewood, CO
    edited September 2005
    Crunchie wrote:
    Hi. I have a P4 3Mhz PC that according to the info I have, can be OC'd by 30% or to 3.6Mhz.
    Motherboard is an AsusTek P4P800-X. CPU by Intel. Bios from American Megatrends, version 080009.
    1Gig DDR RAM, 80 Gig HD. ATI Radeon 9200 128Mb series Graphics.
    I have just OC'd it to 3.3 by setting the clock speed to 220. The other settings are set to Auto. I have the option to choose by percentage in the BIOS in increments of 5%, but when I attempt to go over 5% the PC will not boot, that is why I adjusted the clock.
    PC boots and runs fine, temps are 47C MB and 32C CPU.
    Problem I am having is that when I try to play Ghost Recon, the PC crashes. Tried it twice and I only get a few minutes of game time.

    I am a complete newby as far as this goes, so if anyone can give me some simple advice, I would appreciate it.



    Uhhhmm,

    Since we're all throwing numbers around we should recognise that 3.6 is 20% more than 3.0, a 30% increase would be 3.9! My ASUS P5GD1 starts getting shakey at 25% and simply fails at 30% I wonder why they don't just overclock them at the factory, the prices seem to go up about $100 per .2 gig & we know about the lust for money in Redmond.

    Thanks.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    OK. Have the FSB set to 235 and the RAM is now running at 188. CPU running at 3525.
    Temps are now 50C CPU and 33C for the mobo. ATM the Vcore voltage is; 1.376 with the ability to take it to 1.6.
    I assume I would be better off running faster RAM?
    Having no stability problems so far. The only thing I have noticed is that I am now getting a 'beep' from within the tower whenever I close an alert window (pop up). The kind you get when you close an app and Windows asks you if you really want to close it. This never happened before.

    ==

    On another note, I have an ATI Radeon 9200 series 128Mb graphics card and want to know what I can safely overclock it to :). I ran 3DMark03 and got a score of 605 which appears to be quite crappy to me? I expected a lot better, but perhaps the card is not what I thought it was?
    Stock settings on the card are; 240 core and 166 memory. I have it set to jump to 275 core and 185 memory when I play a game. Can I safely push the card any more?

    Thanks guys.
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    Hi Crunchie.. 3525, not a bad jump from 3000!.. Ram's running at 188, but that's not too far below stock. You mentioned that you are having no stability problems yet, but have you done any long-term stability testing with a tool like OCCT or Prime95? You can find both of those applications in the SM 'Overclocking Tools' download area. I've run systems that 'appear' stable for quite a long period of time, yet fail these tests within 10-15 minutes. They provide a very good indication of overall system stability. If you can get through 8+ hours of torture testing, then you can be reasonably sure your system is stable.

    Your CPU temperature seems rather high, but then again, it appears that your CPU is a 'Prescott' core P4. These chips are notorious for running really toasty. Are you using the stock CPU cooler? Also, is that temperature you mentioned at idle? or while folding etc.?

    As for the 9200, I have a 9200se in my second machine, and it's really not a very good gaming card I'm afraid. It's rather crippled, as far as memory performance, and pipelines/shaders are concerned, so even with high clocks, it does not perform very well at all. I think there may be a way to 'unlock' some of the crippled functions of the card, but I have not tried. If you want to push your card a bit higher, ATITool is a great application, and can help you find your 'max mem' and 'max core' automatically.. give it a shot..

    Good luck :thumbsup:
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    Thanks lemonlime. I have ATITool now and will give it a run. Does it tell you when the maximum's have been reached? There is an option in it to unlock the clock lock.

    I found out what the beep was that I reported earlier. For some unknown reason the sound driver got corrupted. This happened immediately after bumping up the FSB, but I didn't realise what it was until I noticed there was no sound. Could the OC have done something you think? I have it going again now.

    Maximum Temps I have seen with the CPU being stressed was 54C. It runs at 48C-49C almost immediately after boot up. I only have the stock cooler and the fan at the power supply. Am thinking of getting a chassis fan also. You are right, it is a Prescott. I read somewhere else that you needn't be concerned until Temps reach 60C +. What you think?
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    ATI tool will slowly increase the clock speeds until it detects artifacting, and then it will slowly lower it until there is no more artifacting, thus finding your maximums. It doesn't always work perfectly, but it helps give you a good idea of what the maximum is.

    If your sound driver got corrupted after FSB increases, I'd strongly recommend some long-term stability testing to ensure your system is stable. It may appear stable, but there is a good possibility it is not. I wouldn't write up anything important on your machine right now (like a resume etc) just in case :D

    Yeah those 'press-hots' get quite warm. I belive they should be fine beyond 60 degrees, but the high temperatures will impact your overclock, and limit you from further vcore increases too. I think getting some additional case fans will help a lot. I'd recommend at least one additional exhaust fan, if not a frontal intake fan as well.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    No worries :). Will follow up on your advice. Thanks again.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited September 2005
    What's happening, Crunchie? Where are we at? Tell us how it's going. Sorry I didn't find this sooner, but it looks like the others have taken good care of you.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    Hey Leonardo, thanks for asking :). I was just about to post what I was up to when I got the email that you had posted :D.
    So, what I am up to now is, I have ordered some PC4200 RAM to replace the 3200 I have currently. That should keep up with the amount I will be OC'ing it. Hopefully I will have it in the next couple of days.
    The only problems I had before were with the soundcard drivers becoming corrupt. Whether that was as a result of the OC'ing or not, I do not know. Once I get this faster RAM installed I will start juicing her up again and see how it goes.

    I have used ATI tool to take my GC from 240Mhz core and 166Mhz mem to 275Mhz core and 185Mhz mem whilst I have any games happening. I got a slight increase with 3Dmark, but am not expecting any miracles with the card I have.

    Will post back when I have the RAM.

    Thanks again.
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited September 2005
    So....the shop finally got the RAM in and it turned out to be DDR2. No good for mine :(.
    The DDR400 RAM I have currently is made by Veritech. Would it be worthwhile upping the voltage for them, and if so, to what? For instance; if they are currently running at say 2.5 volts, could I take them to 2.7 or 2.8? If so, what kind of increase in Mhz could I expect to be able to get from them stably?
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited September 2005
    Crunchie wrote:
    So....the shop finally got the RAM in and it turned out to be DDR2. No good for mine :(.
    The DDR400 RAM I have currently is made by Veritech. Would it be worthwhile upping the voltage for them, and if so, to what? For instance; if they are currently running at say 2.5 volts, could I take them to 2.7 or 2.8? If so, what kind of increase in Mhz could I expect to be able to get from them stably?

    Hey Crunchie,

    I'm not too familiar with Veritech ram, however just about any 'Value' or non-enthusiast ram can run safely at 2.7 to 2.8volts. I could very well get you some extra headroom. How much is questionable, however its always worth a shot. I have some Kingston Value ram that can surpass 250MHz at 2.8volts :D

    Did you happen to get some additional case fans yet Crunchie? Once you start cranking voltages up, it'll be important. I would leave the CPU voltage as is until you can get the some extra airflow in there. The memory should be fine at 2.8 without extra cooling, but long-term, it would be wise..

    Good luck :thumbsup:

    P.S. Did you pick out some good DDR1 memory yet?
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited October 2005
    Due to my work commitments, I have so far been unable to get to the PC store :(.
    I have bumped the RAM voltage as high as my BIOS will allow, 2.65v. Will see if that helps a little.
    Hopefully this coming Saturday I will be able to get down to the store and have a look at what's available :).
  • CrunchieCrunchie Mandurah. Western Australia. Member
    edited October 2005
    Just back from the store and they are checking in to some PC4200 sticks for me @ $AU149ea. Seems that anything faster than 3200 is now DDR2 which is no good for me :(.
    Just opened the case again and the PSU is a Rexpower PL-400. Seen somewhere that these are quite crappy units. According to the unit it only puts out 220 watt!

    Also, where the power button is on the front of the case there is a fan that blows air into the case, (never noticed that before) so I take it that's a good thing :)? On the side cover there are two vents, one open and the other with the 'snorkel' over the heatsink.
    So, if I have it right in my head, I have the PSU blowing air into the case, as well as the fan @ front. The fan on the CPU is sucking air into the case to cool the CPU and all the hot air should be getting blown straight out the other side vent?

    Anyways, the shop will be (hopefully) calling me on Monday to let me know if the PC4200 is just plain old DDR or DDR2.
  • lemonlimelemonlime Canada Member
    edited October 2005
    Crunchie wrote:
    Just back from the store and they are checking in to some PC4200 sticks for me @ $AU149ea. Seems that anything faster than 3200 is now DDR2 which is no good for me :(.
    Just opened the case again and the PSU is a Rexpower PL-400. Seen somewhere that these are quite crappy units. According to the unit it only puts out 220 watt!

    Also, where the power button is on the front of the case there is a fan that blows air into the case, (never noticed that before) so I take it that's a good thing :)? On the side cover there are two vents, one open and the other with the 'snorkel' over the heatsink.
    So, if I have it right in my head, I have the PSU blowing air into the case, as well as the fan @ front. The fan on the CPU is sucking air into the case to cool the CPU and all the hot air should be getting blown straight out the other side vent?

    Anyways, the shop will be (hopefully) calling me on Monday to let me know if the PC4200 is just plain old DDR or DDR2.


    Hey Crunchie,

    That PSU is probably not the best candidate for your system, especially once you begin pushing the overclocking envilope. Do you have any temperature/voltage monitoring applications installed on your PC? Asus PC Probe for example?

    Take a look at the +12V, +5V and +3.3V, and let us know what their readings are, and if they are jumping around at all.

    Also, printed on the side of the PSU, what is the 'Amp' rating they give the +12V rail?

    Hopefully you can find some good ram over there. PC4200 is a very common speed for DDR2 ram. You should look for PC4000, as you'll have better luck sourcing DDR1 of that speed. I dont think there is any PC4000 DDR2 afik. Also, 250MHz is the rated speed, but you should be able to push just about any quality PC4000 to 260MHz if not further. Keep an eye out for brands like OCZ, Corsair, Kingston Hyper X, Crucial Balistix, G.Skill, Mushkin etc..
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