LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
Alright, I'm back again.
LOL, I performed the heatsink/fan swap and then promptly put the 7700 and 7000 back in the computers where they originated. After swapping, System No. 1's CPU just became to hot. When I reinstalled the heatsinks back on the original computer, I bent the tension springs for better heatsink pressure against the CPUs. It gave me another 2*C cooling on the overclocked D820. It's running at:
LOL, I performed the heatsink/fan swap and then promptly put the 7700 and 7000 back in the computers where they originated. After swapping, System No. 1's CPU just became to hot. When I reinstalled the heatsinks back on the original computer, I bent the tension springs for better heatsink pressure against the CPUs. It gave me another 2*C cooling on the overclocked D820. It's running at:
I imagine you'll gain some more cooling when the thermal paste sets in. I'd leave it there til after christmas folding 24/7 ...gromacs and/or dbl gromacs if you can help it.
You're temps aren't that bad really. Considering you're on air and all. If you've never watercooled I'd say you're not missing much at all. As long as you can keep your case temps decent you'll be doing well. I've always found the arctic cooling gpu cooler to help tremendously with removing quite a bit of heat from the case.
Looks like you have a little more headroom on the fsb though once you get burned in!
Leo, the way I understand the throttling action of the processor, it doesn't actually slow down the speed of it at first, just makes it wait a certain amount of cycles in a stop state. I think the actual frequency reduction happens when it hits the TM2 state which is a higher temp threshold than the TM1 state. Now I could be wrong about this, but that's what I understand about the P4 throttling. Also, I wouldn't worry too much if you get some minor throttling as it won't hurt the processor; it's doing it's designed job in protection of overheating that dual core pressie beast.
And since you do live up in Alaska, I would consider watercooling that beast at some point in the future too. If you buy a good pump with decent head pressure like an Eheim 1250 or higher, you should be able to remote mount the radiator outside and have some really cool temps.
If you do want to stay with air cooling, I would suggest nothing less than a very high end solution like an XP90C or XP120 (if it fits your mobo) or some other high end heatsink. For your purpose of keeping it quiet and cool, the XP120 would probably be the best way to go if it fits your mobo as you can put a fairly high cfm fan on it and still keep it relatively quiet. Panaflo makes a 120X38 mm M1a fan that puts out 86-88 cfm with around 35 dB; I have a few and they are pretty quiet, with no annoying whine to them, just a low pitched wooshing noise of airflow. Sanyo Denki also makes some 120 mm fans in the same cfm range that are quiet, from what I've heard too.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
CSimon, Mudd, thanks for hangin' with me here. Currently running stable at CPU 3360, FSB 240-960, memory 400. Water cooling? Oh no, no thank you. This hobby already consumes enough time. I don't want to make it even more complex. High end air cooling. Now we're talking. This Zalman 7000 ain't gonna cut it for overclocking. But I knew that before building this system. The first goal was to have a monstor folder on the cheap. That goal was met. Secondary goal was to learn a new chipset, dual core, and just have fun building a new system. That goal met as well. Sure, overclocking was a goal too, but not as important as the first two. Concerning a better air cooler - I'll see what's blowing in the wind over at Ebay.
Is it just me or do the pics in this thread look all screwy?
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
Is it just me or do the pics in this thread look all screwy?
Just lay off the spicy Cajun food and the Christmas wine and it should look OK.
Merry Christmas, Chris!
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
Made some progress. When I was mucking around inside the case today, I noticed that the video card was very warm, which surprised me as I don't push it. I moved my hand around in the case for a while trying to sense airflow patterns. The heat from the video card was wafting straight up into the heatsink fan. Remembering a part I hadn't used in over five years, I went down to the garage and rummaged through the parts pin. Sure enough, there was my expansion slot cooler, the flat blower type. It lowered case temperature by 1*C and CPU temperature by 3*C. It bought me a slightly higher overclock of 3360MHz without adding much noise. It's stable with no clock throttling. I also tested the system by adding another exhaust fan in the expansion slot area. That did not work very well. It did cool the video card, but pulled too much cool air away from the heatsink fan. I think the CPU is good for 3500+ per core. It's time to start looking for better CPU cooling.
Mack, I have no actual hands on experience with the Big Typhoon, but I've also heard the same thing too. How is the base finish on it? I hope it's better than the other Thermaltake bases I've seen, but I haven't messed with any of their heatsinks since the Volcano 7 series. There is a guy over at the overclockers forum that was able to adapt a Big Typhoon on his Dothan rig (CT-479 adapter tends to get in the way) and he reports excellent cooling even with it overclocked to over 2800 MHz with temps under 40 C folding.
It looks pretty good new, but i have used it on a number of cpu's already so mine doesn't look that good.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
During lunch break I went out and purchased a Big Typhoon. (I know, I know...so much for the "budget" box.)
"How is the base finish on it?" Probably the worst I've seen on a heatsink in the high end category. A little buffing with metal polish should take care of it. I should be having some fun tonight. Fun, that is, after I pull the motherboard, install the back plate, and reassemble the computer. Arrgggh. Guess there's no getting around it these days. With the leverage the hanging weight of large heatsinks makes, motherboard bracing is necessary. Slightly off topic - I think the best heatsink retention design we've seen in the last few years has been Socket 478.
I think flatness is most important ...I think this is what you guys are saying.
Next time I take my pc apart I'll post a pic of my apogee wb and my ihs. The apogee is mirror polished and very flat from swiftech. The ihs on the other hand had lips on the edges and was very convexed. I lapped the ihs and made a much better contact as an end result.
I remember Larry demonstrating flatness of surface with a credit card. Set the edge on the surface in both directions and diagonally and if at any point it doesn't make total contact then you may consider lapping. Good ole mtgoat!
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
A heatsink finish doesn't have to be mirror-like polished to be good. For example: How do you polish aluminium so that it looks like a mirror?
If you can feel a lot of chops with your fingernail when you move it across the base, then i would agree it have a bad finish.
You are right, after all. There does not seem to be definitive research pointing to either "mirror" finish or slightly brushed being superior to each other. There is some speculation that states a slightly rough finish provides more surface area for heat dissipation. I haven't had a chance to test the heatsink's base for flatness. I'll report back after installation and testing. (I can't believe I actually purchased a Thermaltake product. It was only just a couple years ago that Thermaltake was just a joke. Things change, don't they.)
Heck if you take things apart may as well inspect the flatness of the ihs.
I also lapped my nb, sb and mofset sinks but the gain was not noticable. I think the as5 application did more good.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
Unbelievable! You could not have told me the results and gotten me to respond with a straight face had I not seen them with my own eyes. Simply amazing.
The Arctic Silver hasn't even cured yet and this dual core Presshot, each core overclocked from the default 2800MHz to 3332MHz is running at 44*C! That is a load delta of 12*C under the Zalman 7000 I was using. (The Zalman 7000 is not a cheap OEM jobber, but a decent sink in its own right.) Another benefit of this heatsink is that it is just as quiet as Thermaltake and the reviews claim. It cannot be heard over the other computers' fans in the office; and you know me, my computers are all very low noise.
When I first started prepping the motherboard for Typhoon installation, I was saying to myself, "There is no way this big honking sink will fit my case - it's just too tall." Well, it fits just fine with room to spare. Although the mounting hardware was a little difficult to manipulate, especially the tiny stainless steel nuts that secure the heatsink to the mounting studs, the stability of the assembled, mounted unit is superb. I was able to lift the motherboard by the heatsink and move it around without any shift of the sink's base on the CPU.
It's a bit late, so I doubt I'll get to stepping up the overclocking tonight. I'll let you guys know how it goes when I have the chance to play. That'll probably be Friday night.
I did the credit card trick to check the base for flatness. It was excellent - near perfect.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
Tweaked for about 20 minutes last night before I went to bed. Even with the drastically reduced CPU core temperature, I could not get a stable clock above 3332 (14X238). I'm thinking this is a power delivery problem. The PSU is putting out 11.72v on the 12 rail, and it's not stable, fluctuating when I open programs. Check me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is a RAM clock or timing problem. Instability above 14X238 is quite in-your-face, being an abrupt crash out of Windows and an automatic reboot. Voltage starvation? There are no blue screens, and no problems re-POSTing. The power settings preceding the crash were (setting/indicated) vCore 1.5/1.38, vMem 1.9/1.9, and vPCIe-AGP 1.55.
Yesterday I purchased on Ebay an Akasa 460W v2.0 EPS12v PSU. I'm thinking that will deliver more reliable, robust power. 460W should be plenty enough, as I have only one hard drive, two fans, and a low power video card running.
Could the problem also be caused, or contributed to by an overheating northbridge? The NB is getting very hot. I'll be swapping out the NB cooler too. I will probably be installing an early series PIII/Athlon CPU heatsink as a passive cooler.
Glad to hear the Big Typhoon is working out well for you, Leo. Sorry I haven't been around much but the internet connection on the rig has been really crappy the last several days, but hopefully that's over with. They are supposed to be changing out the carrier we are using here to someone that might be a little better.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited December 2005
Sorry I haven't been around much but...
What, you think I can't work through technical challenges without you?
Just kidding. It's always more fun when the big guns are providing support.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
i know it shouldn't matter, but i have heard of people hitting a wall b/c of msi's corecell application suite. maybe try uninstalling it and then go back to overclocking to see if it matters.
Today I removed all MSI software, double checking for stray registry entries with RegCleaner. Nope. No difference. BIOS-only overclcocking settings allow a boot into the operating system only up to 214MHz FSB. I think this limitation has something to do with the CoreCell unit mounted on the motherboard. OK, nothing new to try until the northbridge has better cooling and until there is a more stable PSU installed. ProfDLP is sending me an old Athlon CPU and a new (slightly used) PSU is on it's way from an Ebay seller.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
Guys, measure the 12V with a multimeter. DO NOT rely on the software readings. They haven't been accurate since the fall of '47.
Mack, I must again concede to your expertise. I invited a friend over today and he brought his multimeter. The multimeter was a high quality unit that measured to 1/1000th of a volt. The Robanton PSU in System No. 4 (D820 system) rated 11.89 - to 11.91 steady under full load at CPU overclock of 3360. Software monitoring showed the load at 11.78 volts. The Antec in System 3 showed a rock steady voltage 12.04, software monitored at 11.84.
LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited January 2006
DDR2 533 or DDR 667
SPD for both 533 and 667 at 200FSB is 4-4-4-11. I can set this to about whatever I want. Is that what you meant?
Hmm, you just made me think of something. If the DRAM is set to 667, the CPU FSB to DRAM frequency ratio is 3:5. If the DRAM is set to 533, the FSB-DRAM ratio is 3:4. Let's see what can happen.
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LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited January 2006
PROGRESS - 3.5Ghz, 14 X 250FSB/1000, DDR2 333MHz/channel
I had it running seemingly stable under load (2 X Folding@Home clients) at 260FSB. I raised the FSB to 265, but then the screen froze. I rebooted, bumped the vCore to 1.55 and it still froze at 265. Rebooted, relaxed the RAM timings to 5-5-5-13 and raised the vMem to 2.0 - still froze. With all other settings the same, I backed down again to the previously stable setting of 260FSB - it froze again. Too much vMem? I backed vMem down to 1.95 and it was stable with two F@H instances and Firefox browsing in four tabs. Good, I thought. Well, I added a slideshow of digital photos and the system again crashed.
System running stable now at 3.5GHz (14X250) two instances of Folding, monitoring software, four tabs of Firefox, and digital photos slideshow. CPU temp is 48*C.
Don't really know what settings to tweak at this point:
vPCI/e? (it's still at default)
vMem? (above 1.95 seems to cause instability)
vCore? (board has settings up to 1.65 or more)
DDR2 timings? (settings available for as low as 6-6-6-16)
Comments
LOL, I performed the heatsink/fan swap and then promptly put the 7700 and 7000 back in the computers where they originated. After swapping, System No. 1's CPU just became to hot. When I reinstalled the heatsinks back on the original computer, I bent the tension springs for better heatsink pressure against the CPUs. It gave me another 2*C cooling on the overclocked D820. It's running at:
CPU Freq: 3304MHz - 14x236
FSB: 236/944
vCore Set/vCore Indicated: 1.43/1.34
vMem: 1.85v
vPCI/PCIe/AGP: 1.55
Memory Freq: 393 (CPU Z)
DRAM Timings: 4/4/4/11
CPU-FSB Ratio: 3:5
So far - no throttling and all's stable.
You're temps aren't that bad really. Considering you're on air and all. If you've never watercooled I'd say you're not missing much at all. As long as you can keep your case temps decent you'll be doing well. I've always found the arctic cooling gpu cooler to help tremendously with removing quite a bit of heat from the case.
Looks like you have a little more headroom on the fsb though once you get burned in!
And since you do live up in Alaska, I would consider watercooling that beast at some point in the future too. If you buy a good pump with decent head pressure like an Eheim 1250 or higher, you should be able to remote mount the radiator outside and have some really cool temps.
If you do want to stay with air cooling, I would suggest nothing less than a very high end solution like an XP90C or XP120 (if it fits your mobo) or some other high end heatsink. For your purpose of keeping it quiet and cool, the XP120 would probably be the best way to go if it fits your mobo as you can put a fairly high cfm fan on it and still keep it relatively quiet. Panaflo makes a 120X38 mm M1a fan that puts out 86-88 cfm with around 35 dB; I have a few and they are pretty quiet, with no annoying whine to them, just a low pitched wooshing noise of airflow. Sanyo Denki also makes some 120 mm fans in the same cfm range that are quiet, from what I've heard too.
Nice job leo!
Looks like you got a decent chip. Which was your main concern with this one.
Merry Christmas, Chris!
If you are buying a new heatsink, look for the Thermaltake Big Typhoon. It's huge in size, but it's the best there is.
"How is the base finish on it?" Probably the worst I've seen on a heatsink in the high end category. A little buffing with metal polish should take care of it. I should be having some fun tonight. Fun, that is, after I pull the motherboard, install the back plate, and reassemble the computer. Arrgggh. Guess there's no getting around it these days. With the leverage the hanging weight of large heatsinks makes, motherboard bracing is necessary. Slightly off topic - I think the best heatsink retention design we've seen in the last few years has been Socket 478.
A heatsink finish doesn't have to be mirror-like polished to be good. For example: How do you polish aluminium so that it looks like a mirror?
If you can feel a lot of chops with your fingernail when you move it across the base, then i would agree it have a bad finish.
Next time I take my pc apart I'll post a pic of my apogee wb and my ihs. The apogee is mirror polished and very flat from swiftech. The ihs on the other hand had lips on the edges and was very convexed. I lapped the ihs and made a much better contact as an end result.
I remember Larry demonstrating flatness of surface with a credit card. Set the edge on the surface in both directions and diagonally and if at any point it doesn't make total contact then you may consider lapping. Good ole mtgoat!
You are right, after all. There does not seem to be definitive research pointing to either "mirror" finish or slightly brushed being superior to each other. There is some speculation that states a slightly rough finish provides more surface area for heat dissipation. I haven't had a chance to test the heatsink's base for flatness. I'll report back after installation and testing. (I can't believe I actually purchased a Thermaltake product. It was only just a couple years ago that Thermaltake was just a joke. Things change, don't they.)
Heck if you take things apart may as well inspect the flatness of the ihs.
I also lapped my nb, sb and mofset sinks but the gain was not noticable. I think the as5 application did more good.
The Arctic Silver hasn't even cured yet and this dual core Presshot, each core overclocked from the default 2800MHz to 3332MHz is running at 44*C! That is a load delta of 12*C under the Zalman 7000 I was using. (The Zalman 7000 is not a cheap OEM jobber, but a decent sink in its own right.) Another benefit of this heatsink is that it is just as quiet as Thermaltake and the reviews claim. It cannot be heard over the other computers' fans in the office; and you know me, my computers are all very low noise.
When I first started prepping the motherboard for Typhoon installation, I was saying to myself, "There is no way this big honking sink will fit my case - it's just too tall." Well, it fits just fine with room to spare. Although the mounting hardware was a little difficult to manipulate, especially the tiny stainless steel nuts that secure the heatsink to the mounting studs, the stability of the assembled, mounted unit is superb. I was able to lift the motherboard by the heatsink and move it around without any shift of the sink's base on the CPU.
It's a bit late, so I doubt I'll get to stepping up the overclocking tonight. I'll let you guys know how it goes when I have the chance to play. That'll probably be Friday night.
I did the credit card trick to check the base for flatness. It was excellent - near perfect.
Yesterday I purchased on Ebay an Akasa 460W v2.0 EPS12v PSU. I'm thinking that will deliver more reliable, robust power. 460W should be plenty enough, as I have only one hard drive, two fans, and a low power video card running.
Could the problem also be caused, or contributed to by an overheating northbridge? The NB is getting very hot. I'll be swapping out the NB cooler too. I will probably be installing an early series PIII/Athlon CPU heatsink as a passive cooler.
Simon, did you read your PM? I have a bios for you my friend.
Again thanks!
csimon
Just kidding. It's always more fun when the big guns are providing support.
SPD for both 533 and 667 at 200FSB is 4-4-4-11. I can set this to about whatever I want. Is that what you meant?
Hmm, you just made me think of something. If the DRAM is set to 667, the CPU FSB to DRAM frequency ratio is 3:5. If the DRAM is set to 533, the FSB-DRAM ratio is 3:4. Let's see what can happen.
Settings:
DDR2: 533MHz mode, timings 5-5-5-13 (SPD 4-4-4-11).
vCore: 1.5 set/1.38 indicated (default 1.3)
vMem: 1.95 (default 1.8)
vPCI/e: 1.55
CPU Core Temp: 49-51*C
System Temp: 28-30*C
I had it running seemingly stable under load (2 X Folding@Home clients) at 260FSB. I raised the FSB to 265, but then the screen froze. I rebooted, bumped the vCore to 1.55 and it still froze at 265. Rebooted, relaxed the RAM timings to 5-5-5-13 and raised the vMem to 2.0 - still froze. With all other settings the same, I backed down again to the previously stable setting of 260FSB - it froze again. Too much vMem? I backed vMem down to 1.95 and it was stable with two F@H instances and Firefox browsing in four tabs. Good, I thought. Well, I added a slideshow of digital photos and the system again crashed.
System running stable now at 3.5GHz (14X250) two instances of Folding, monitoring software, four tabs of Firefox, and digital photos slideshow. CPU temp is 48*C.
Don't really know what settings to tweak at this point:
vPCI/e? (it's still at default)
vMem? (above 1.95 seems to cause instability)
vCore? (board has settings up to 1.65 or more)
DDR2 timings? (settings available for as low as 6-6-6-16)