Give Me Your Advice on Upgrading an Athlon System

LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, Alaska Icrontian
edited July 2006 in Hardware
It's time to upgrade System 2 (signature).

Objectives:

* AMD-based system.
* Use existing parts if practical and if it doesn't impede performance improvement.
* Want significant overall performance improvement over existing system.
* Dual core mandatory.
* Want system to be fully Vista capable
* Easily upgradeable for next 18 to 24 months.
* Overclocking potential would be nice, but is not required. If overclocking is performed, it must be a practical overclock, one that really makes a difference - not just an exercise of "did it because I could."
* Need DVD ROM and CD recording capability.

The system is and will be used for general purpose computing: Folding@Home 24/7, Internet, streaming media, video, light gaming, MS Office/Sun Open Office, email, photograph viewing and editing. Do not need high power video, premium RAM, super fast hard drives, DVD recording, floppy drive, or premium sound. This will not be a tweaking box. (I've got enough on my hands with the Intel flamethrowers of Systems 1, 3, and 4.)

My intent is a low-budget upgrade. I have no problem sourcing parts through private trading forums and eBay. (I enjoy wheelin' and dealin'.)

Existing parts:

Abit NF7S-2.0
AMD XP2800+ (Barton)
Zalman 400W PSU
1GB Geil Value PC3200
ATI 9700Pro (AGP)
Hitachi Deskstar 160GB (PATA)
Seagate 160GB (PATA)
HS/F - Zalman 7000A-AlCu;

(Don't need new case, case fans, monitor, keyboard, or speakers.)

Thanks in advanced. I'll probably be very picky with this, so please kindly bear with me. :D
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Comments

  • miragemirage
    edited July 2006
    Here is a suggestion. I think you can use the PSU, case, and harddisks from the older system. I would go with socket AM2 and NF5 combination instead of socket 939, although there are RAM problems, as everyone is discussing nowadays, those will be eliminated with BIOS updates very soon.

    MSI K9N Neo-F Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 550 MCP ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130050 $76.99

    AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Windsor 2000MHz HT Socket AM2 Dual Core Processor Model ADA4200CUBOX - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103747 $199

    CORSAIR XMS2 1GB (2 x 512MB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) TWIN2X1024A-6400 - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145566 $104

    eVGA 256-P2-N547 Geforce 7600GS 256MB GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130011 $129

    NEC 16X DVD±R DVD Burner Black IDE/ATAPI Model ND-3550A - OEM
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152058 $30.99


    Total = $540


    You might also need these to use older harddisks.

    Rosewill RC-204 IDE Device to SATA Device Mini Vertical Bridge (for IDE device) - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812206002 $12.99
  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Leo, I would suggest a more conservative upgrade. I don't like the feel of AM2 yet. It's too new. This is coming from someone who is typing this on a finally stable AM2 system.

    Keep your RAM and build a system around that. Is your PSU an EPS (the 24 pin) model?
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Thanks Mirage, Prime.

    No, the PSU is the 20-pin ATX type. Do the 939 and AM2 boards require 24-pin?
    Keep your RAM and build a system around that.
    Hmm, not sure if that would be prudent. If I upgrade the CPU and video card, but keep my slow PC3200, what have I really gained other than better multitasking? And it would be silly to purchase faster DDR(1) at this time, when all the new platforms are DDR2. (Excuse me if my questions are silly, but I've not built or upgraded an AMD platform since 2003.)

    Mirage, thank you very much. That's an attractive system. For no fuss, non-overclocked solutions, MSI rocks. Does Asrock make an AM2 board that has both AGP and PCIe slots? That way, I could delay upgrading the video until I really needed it (for Vista, I guess).
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Socket AM2 Dual Core Processor Model ADA4200CUBOX - Retail
    Can anyone tell me the noise level of the stock heatsink/fan?
  • primesuspectprimesuspect Beepin n' Boopin Detroit, MI Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    I think you could get into a dual core amd setup, like the opteron 165 system that a few people around here are running, which would be able to utilize that PC3200, for cheap. It would be a very significant performance boost from where you're at.

    Case in point: I went from a mobile barton 2600+ / NF7-S to the Asus a8r-mvp / opt 170 combo, using the same RAM. The difference is extreme. The opt170 system is much, much higher performance than the 2600+ system.

    Yes, you'll need to upgrade your PSU if you go to 939 or AM2.
  • Omega65Omega65 Philadelphia, Pa
    edited July 2006
    Leonardo wrote:
    It's time to upgrade System 2 (signature).

    Objectives:

    * AMD-based system.
    * Use existing parts if practical and if it doesn't impede performance improvement.
    * Want significant overall performance improvement over existing system.
    * Dual core mandatory.
    * Want system to be fully Vista capable
    * Easily upgradeable for next 18 to 24 months.
    * Overclocking potential would be nice, but is not required. If overclocking is performed, it must be a practical overclock, one that really makes a difference - not just an exercise of "did it because I could."
    * Need DVD ROM and CD recording capability.

    The system is and will be used for general purpose computing: Folding@Home 24/7, Internet, streaming media, video, light gaming, MS Office/Sun Open Office, email, photograph viewing and editing. Do not need high power video, premium RAM, super fast hard drives, DVD recording, floppy drive, or premium sound. This will not be a tweaking box. (I've got enough on my hands with the Intel flamethrowers of Systems 1, 3, and 4.)

    My intent is a low-budget upgrade. I have no problem sourcing parts through private trading forums and eBay. (I enjoy wheelin' and dealin'.)

    Existing parts:

    Abit NF7S-2.0
    AMD XP2800+ (Barton)
    Zalman 400W PSU
    1GB Geil Value PC3200
    ATI 9700Pro (AGP)
    Hitachi Deskstar 160GB (PATA)
    Seagate 160GB (PATA)
    HS/F - Zalman 7000A-AlCu;


    DFI nF4 SLI-Infinity S939 $99
    Athlon X2 3800+ S939 $169 - Stock speed 2.0ghz - Will OC to +2.5ghz easily

    ATI X1600 HIS Hightech H160PRQ256N Radeon X1600PRO 256MB $95 ($80 AR)
    NEC

    ND-3550A 16X DL DVD Burner     $31

    If your PSU has at least 20A on the 12v line you can keep it otherwise
    OCZ Modstream 450w $80 ($60 AR) +3.3V@28A, +5V@45A, +12V@26A, -5V@0.8A, -12V@1A, +5VSB@2.5A

    Everything else crosses over
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    OK, good suggestion, but the Opteron 165 is expensive. Is really worth $100 more than an X2 3800+?
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Omega, thanks. Looks good. Wow, I didn't know that X2 3800s OC'ed that well.
  • Omega65Omega65 Philadelphia, Pa
    edited July 2006
    Personally I prefer the 1MB cache Cores, but then I paid the same price for both my X2 3800+ & Opty 165 last year.
  • miragemirage
    edited July 2006
    Leo, since you have specifically asked for AMD I have suggested an AMD system. But, if I were shopping for myself, I would be looking for a Core2 system. Check out this review, these guys are also overclocking very well.

    http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2802&p=1

    And, this would be my motherboard.

    ASUS P5B Socket T (LGA 775) Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
  • Omega65Omega65 Philadelphia, Pa
    edited July 2006
    For a Core 2 system, he'd have to upgrade the mobo ($200+), CPU ($200+), Ram ($150+) & Video card ($99+).

    The X2 3800+ system I specced is only $394 vs the Core 2 Duo $649

    Also it's going to take time to find which Core 2 mobos, chipsets and DDR2 combos are the best price/performers. And personally I would wait for v2 hardware, v1 hardware tends to have annoying bugs
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Omega, yes, you said it well for me. As for Intel, my systems 1, 3, and 4 will probably eventually migrate to Conroe, once the platforms are well defined, stable, and the prices come down. The upgrade for the AMD system should be inexpensive and is also to keep my feet wet in the AMD arena. I don't want to go all Intel or all AMD. I have no emotional preference for either manufacturer, but wish to be conversant in both.

    Now, concerning the suggestion above to go Opteron and run it with my existing PC3200, OK, fine, but the Opteron 165 and 170 CPUs are expensive. If such a combination would provide a noticeable performance improvement, then wouldn't also an X2 3800+ with the same PC3200 provide the same or nearly same noticeable improvement?
  • miragemirage
    edited July 2006
    Well, my intention was not to hijack the thread, I just could not resist telling what I would like to do for myself. Anyway ...

    Is this the ASROCK motherboard you were asking

    ASRock 939Dual-SATA2 Socket 939 ULi M1695 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail $66.99

    It is also available as openbox for just $42.99

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157081R

    It seems like a very popular motherboard, but I have no knowledge about its overclocking capabilities.

    Hope this helps
  • Omega65Omega65 Philadelphia, Pa
    edited July 2006
    I saw an Opteron 170 go for $240 last week at xtremesystems.org and a Opty180 went for $300 the week before that.

    the xtra 512K per core equal 100-200mhz of performance depending on the app.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Yes, Mirage, that IS the board I was inquiring about. That board, plus DDR2 667, plus an X2 3800+ at default clock -- how do you see that performing versus my present system (No. 2 in sig)? (I don't care about gaming performance. If that ever becomes important on this computer, I can always upgrade the video card.)

    I saw an Opteron 170 go for $240 last week at xtremesystems.org and a Opty180 went for $300 the week before that.
    OK, thanks, but that is not a good performance-cost ratio in my opinion, not when the X2 3800 and X2 4200 are at $169 and $198 and the Intel D930 is around $180. If I'm going to spend close to $300 on a CPU, I'll just wait for a good choice in Conroe platforms. My intent here was to get a overall performance boost a modest price.
    Now, concerning the suggestion above to go Opteron and run it with my existing PC3200, OK, fine, but the Opteron 165 and 170 CPUs are expensive. If such a combination would provide a noticeable performance improvement, then wouldn't also an X2 3800+ with the same PC3200 provide the same or nearly same noticeable improvement?
    Anyone?

    Sorry to be a pain, but I warned you guys I'd be picky. :)
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited July 2006
    Leo, I've been running the Dual Sata2 board with an X2-4400 for over 6 months now with no problems. I would recommend the board if your memory doesn't require high voltage to run correctly as the voltage options in bios are limited. The memory timing selections aren't bad though. And it has been stable, overclocking my poor overclocking X2-4400 to 2530 MHz. There is also an easy mod you can do for higher vcore on the mobo that anyone that modded an old unlocked Tbred can do with a conductive trace pen or rear window defogger kit. BTW, the board is quite overclockable within it's voltage limitations. I would buy it new instead of open box though, to make sure you get the i/o backplane with it. It will also run either AGP or PCI-E natively, so you can run your present graphics card with no performance penalty and can upgrade to PCI-e any time for future upgrading (like if you ran across a great deal somewhere), also without any performance penalty. Also, the Dual Sata2 uses a 20 pin ATX connector, so your present psu should work just fine with it.

    As far as price/performance is concerned, it's a tossup between the X2-3800 and the X2-4400. The X2-4400 is roughly $80 more, but you also get the extra L2 cache size and you also get a quite excellent heatpipe cooler that only needs a simple fan upgrade to an 80mm Panaflo H1 to perform as well or better than the XP90. But like Omega said, the 3800's tend to overclock better. I would say to let your budget make the decision. :)
  • miragemirage
    edited July 2006
    Leonardo wrote:
    Yes, Mirage, that IS the board I was inquiring about. That board, plus DDR2 667, plus an X2 3800+ at default clock -- how do you see that performing versus my present system (No. 2 in sig)? (I don't care about gaming performance. If that ever becomes important on this computer, I can always upgrade the video card.)

    The board seems to be a better performer and overclocker than I thought. See below

    http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/09/16/asrock_939dual/

    http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2524

    http://www.pcstats.com/artvnl.cfm?articleID=1860
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited July 2006
    Oh, one more thing about the Dual Sata2 board, Leo. It uses an HRM (heatsink/cpu bracket) that has the exact same hole pattern as a socket 478's HRM, so if you have a socket 478 HRM you can use any hsf that fits a socket 478 board.
  • Mt_GoatMt_Goat Head Cheezy Knob Pflugerville (north of Austin) Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Leo

    I would go with the Asrock dual sata board/ 3800 or 4400/ add a Scythe Ninja/ NEC 3550/ PSU only if as Omega mentioned yours is low on the 12V and use the rest from your current rig including vid card for now. Now that's a cheap upgrade and you will be able to do as you wish in the future from there.
  • miragemirage
    edited July 2006
    Leonardo wrote:
    Yes, Mirage, that IS the board I was inquiring about. That board, plus DDR2 667, plus an X2 3800+ at default clock -- how do you see that performing versus my present system (No. 2 in sig)? (I don't care about gaming performance. If that ever becomes important on this computer, I can always upgrade the video card.)


    Leo, just a quick remark, this board is DDR, no DDR2 support.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Wow, this Asrock board really seems to be a winner. It's a perfect board for those who wish to upgrade in calculated stages. Looking very interesting, indeed. Good points you guys made about the 3800 versus 4400 also. I may decide to spring for the 4400. The subject computer is in another part of the house and is used primarily by my wife and son. They don't give a hoot whether it's overclcocked or not. The extra $80 for a higher clocked CPU in this case might just be worth it. I really don't want to be booting them off the computer so that I can play Tweaking Master of the Universe. That's one reason I haven't played with overclocking on System 2 for nearly three years - it's the family work computer in the center of the house. It's just a plug and play computer for simplicity's sake.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Leo, just a quick remark, this board is DDR, no DDR2 support.
    Right, but it's a decent tradeoff. That tradeoff being that it has both an AGP and PCIe port. That way I don't have to upgrade the video card. I don't have to upgrade my hard drives, I can keep my DRAM, and perhaps the PSU can stay as well. I noticed the Asrock has over 900 reviews at Newegg. Considering that's just a fraction of the buyers, this must be a very popular motherboard.

    It seems as though this is the best flexibility option and still gives great upgrading potential for the future, except for the DRAM. But I would imagine DDR(1) will still be around for a couple years anyway.
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    I read the first few replies in the thread and I was wincing, until I saw that mirage had recommended the Asrock board. That's the exact board that I'd recommend in your situation. Another plus point is that it has a 20-pin PSU connector - so in essence, the only items you need to buy at first are the CPU and motherboard.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    The more I think about it, the more it looks like the Asrock is the perfect board for this upgrade.
    so in essence, the only items you need to buy at first are the CPU and motherboard.
    Exactly. The wife unit will think I'm a hero for a major upgrade (not me, the computer) that is very cheap.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    HEATSINK As I stated previously, I may not bother with overclocking this platform. But....
    As far as price/performance is concerned, it's a tossup between the X2-3800 and the X2-4400. The X2-4400 is roughly $80 more, but you also get the extra L2 cache size and you also get a quite excellent heatpipe cooler that only needs a simple fan upgrade to an 80mm Panaflo H1 to perform as well or better than the XP90.
    Can anyone tell me if the X2-4200 retail CPU also comes with the heatpipe cooler? (Yes, many users have reported that it is an excellent heatsink unit, especially considering it's a bundled, stock model.)
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited July 2006
    To tell you the truth Leo, I'm not sure. I know that the 3800 doesn't come with one and I also know that the Opterons and the X2-4400 and up come with the heatpipe though. The 4200 seems to be a kinda bastard size that nobody I know of has gone with. They've either gone the cheaper route with the 3800 if they wanted a 512k cache model or they've gone with a 4400 or Opty if they wanted to go the 1 MB cache route.
  • Mt_GoatMt_Goat Head Cheezy Knob Pflugerville (north of Austin) Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    Only the Opty's and the 1MB cache/core come w/ the heatpipes. The rest come w/ the standard A64 cooler. I suggested getting another ninja for it so as to be quieter. ;)
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    I've come up with what I think are pretty good bundle deals from MWave. Please tell me what you think, especially the price difference between them and the expected performance differences:

    1) Athlon 64 X2 4600+, retail, 512MB X 2 cache, w/Asrock 939Dual-Sata2, shipped for $323

    2) Athlon 64 X2 4200+, retail, 512MB X 2 cache, w/Asrock 939Dual-Sata2, shipped for $272

    3) Athlon 64 X2 3800+, retail, 512MB X 2 cache, w/Asrock 939Dual-Sata2, shipped for $237
  • miragemirage
    edited July 2006
    Leonardo wrote:
    I've come up with what I think are pretty good bundle deals from MWave. Please tell me what you think, especially the price difference between them and the expected performance differences:

    1) Athlon 64 X2 4600+, retail, 512MB X 2 cache, w/Asrock 939Dual-Sata2, shipped for $323

    2) Athlon 64 X2 4200+, retail, 512MB X 2 cache, w/Asrock 939Dual-Sata2, shipped for $272

    3) Athlon 64 X2 3800+, retail, 512MB X 2 cache, w/Asrock 939Dual-Sata2, shipped for $237


    I would go with 4200+, middle of the road :)
  • edcentricedcentric near Milwaukee, Wisconsin Icrontian
    edited July 2006
    If it was me, I would either go 1MB cache, or go with the 3800+. (I went 3800+)
    The in between options don't strike me as being cost effective.

    C2D looks good, but prices won't come down until two things both happen. Intel needs to get production rates and yields up, AND AMD needs to come back with a viable competitor. 4x4, 65nm, stars and tweeting birds. I don't care what it is, but it had better be very fast.

    At his point I am holding back also. I would actually like to run another NF7S. They are so reliable, and I could retire my last KT7A.....
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