How hot is too hot?

TimTim Southwest PA Icrontian
edited March 2004 in Hardware
My new system is working fairly well, but I have questions on the CPU temps.

System:

Abit NF7, Athlon XP 2500+ @ 1.83 Ghz, not overclocked at all, 512 MB of PC3200, 2 80 MM case fans and one 70 MM fan on the CPU heat sink.

The heat sink and fan cost me $6 on eBay plus $8 for shipping. The fan blows straight down into itself, and it's all aluminum with tall fins. It's about 2 inches tall by 3 inches square. In the auction and even on the box, it said it was copper and good with 3200+ processors, but there is no copper. It's all aluminum.

When I first started it up, it would run around 50 degrees C. Give or take a few degrees.

Thinking the stock heat paste that came with the heat sink was no good, I went to Radio Shack and got a tube of heat transfer paste.

That was a bad idea. Temps jumped 10 degrees. I was seeing 60-65 at idle!

Went to a computer store and got a tube that says 10% silver. Put a good heavy layer of it on, now it runs around 53-54 degrees with 33 degree case temperatures.

I think it's too hot, but a guy at a computer shop said AMDs run hot, and as long as it was below 80-85 to not worry. I see people here with much lower numbers.

Well, I worry about it. I may just have to spend $20-$30 on a quality copper base unit. Until then, no overclocking.

All 3 fans are turning 3000-3200 rpm. The case fans are supposed to be 43 cfm each.
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Comments

  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited March 2004
    That is way, way WAY too hot. Turn it off before it damages itself.

    That heatsink you bought can't handle the 2500+. I'd contact e-bay and the seller, because the guy either screwed up or defrauded you.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2004
    Reset the HSF with a THIN layer of thermal compound. The best heat transfer is metal to metal contact and the paste is only there so there is no air. As thin as you can get it. If you look most of the paste is pushed aside to this is best.

    I would contact the seller and get a copper HS instead.

    +50C idle is high at stock speed.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited March 2004
    mmonnin, any excess thermal paste will be squeezed out by the heatsink's clamping force. He couldn't have used so much to account for idle temps that high. That is way, way too hot.
  • a2jfreaka2jfreak Houston, TX Member
    edited March 2004
    Also, don't put on a heavy/thick layer of themal paste. Follow the manufacturer's instructions, but normally you want a very thin layer (though I'm as guilty as anyone for laying it on thick). Put a small dab on the HS and spread it around with a credit card or something else that lets you easily spread the paste around and work it into the base of the HS in all directions, being sure to cover the area that the CPU makes contact with. Also, do the same with the CPU itself . . . spreading it on very thinly, but being sure to cover the entire top side of the die.

    As Geeky said, that HS might not be sufficient for that processor.
    Personally, with SVC offering the king of deals that they do with heatsinks and fans I just don't see taking the risk on Ebay.
  • a2jfreaka2jfreak Houston, TX Member
    edited March 2004
    Yeah, it is! :)

    I don't seem to have temps as low as most people, but even migh slightly-above-normal temps are better than that. I have my 2500+ XP-M at 2.5GHz and it is ~50C after running F@H for hours/days. Don't recall what the temps were idle, but I'm sure it was in the low 40's, and that's running nearly 700MHz faster than his chip w/ a higher vCore too.
    mmonnin wrote:
    +50C idle is high at stock speed.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2004
    I didnt mean that was the sole cause of the high temps, just one of a few. I also said most of it is prolly pushes aside of the CPU.;)
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    now it runs around 53-54 degrees with 33 degree case temperatures.

    Yes, that is too high for idle. I'm running my System No. 1 with a 700MHz overclock - my summer CPU temperature is 52-53*C with two instances of Folding pushing the CPU at 100%. My System No. 2 typically runs about 2-4*C cooler under the same conditions.

    Your case temp is also a bit high. It appears that your exhaust fan(s) may not be eliminated as much heat as they could be; that's probably part of your problem.
  • TheBaronTheBaron Austin, TX
    edited March 2004
    you didnt mention exactly what HSF you're using, but i'm going to go ahead and assume that its a piece of junk. first, if there is a little pad on the base of the heatsink, black / pink then you should NOT be using thermal paste. honestly, the stock amd cooler should get temps much bteter than that, so if i were you i'd either buy a different heatsink (vantec aeroflow or maybe something by thermalright), or check to make sure you didn't mess up the installation of the current one OR just use the stock sink.
  • a2jfreaka2jfreak Houston, TX Member
    edited March 2004
    I always use Goo Gone to remove the compound on the stock AMD HS. Goo Gone leaves a film on the HS, though, so I then take a drop or two of dishwashing liquid to remove the film. Then you're ready to apply some ArticSilver to the HS and to the CPU.
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    I always use Goo Gone to remove the compound on the stock AMD HS. Goo Gone leaves a film on the HS, though...
    I always chime in after such posts and recommend acetone for cleaning CPUs. It does not leave a film.

    There, the acetone evangelist feels better now. :)
  • MJOMJO Denmark New
    edited March 2004
    I use isopropyl alcohol to clean my heatsinks and cpu's.
    It does the job and doesn't smell as strongly as Acetone.
    Both of them could get you high though.* ;D
    :zombie:

    * Just kidding, you shouldn't inhale your household chemicals.

    EDIT: In reply to Geeky1's reply here's what Isopropyl Alcohol does to you when digested.
    http://www.embbs.com/cr/alc/alc5.html
    Isopropyl alcohol is metabolized to acetone in the liver by alcohol dehydrogenase. Eighty percent of the absorbed dose is then excreted by the kidneys as acetone with 20% being excreted unchanged.

    I guess that the rules that apply to acetone also applies to Isopropyl Alcohol?
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited March 2004
    Does the Acetone Evangelist know what Acetone does to your liver?
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    Yes, that's why I quit drinking it! :wtf:

    Just be smart, and use only in small quantities in ventilated areas. I've no doubt that a small inhalation every now and then is no than walking behind a running car's exhaust pipe for one or two seconds. So, there.

    MJO. I've tried isopropyl alcohol. Acetone works much better. (No, not drinking.) So, there.
  • a2jfreaka2jfreak Houston, TX Member
    edited March 2004
    I didn't say to clean the CPU with Goo gone. I said the HS. I only say to do that when it's s stock HS or a HS that comes with that thick compound that's almost completely solid. Goo Gone eats the stuff quickly, but maybe acetone will too, I've never tried it.
    Leonardo wrote:
    I always chime in after such posts and recommend acetone for cleaning CPUs. It does not leave a film.

    There, the acetone evangelist feels better now. :)
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited March 2004
    Leo, the problem is that Acetone molecules are small enough to go right through your skin, into your bloodstream, and straight to your liver.

    It's not a big deal as long as you don't BATHE in it or anything, but you really should wear latex gloves while using it.
  • MJOMJO Denmark New
    edited March 2004
    Geeky1:
    That is correct, but in small amounts it shouldn't do any harm.

    Look here:
    http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts21.html
    If you are exposed to acetone, it goes into your blood which then carries it to all the organs in your body. If it is a small amount, the liver breaks it down to chemicals that are not harmful and uses these chemicals to make energy for normal body functions.

    But if you forgot to put the cap on the acetone:
    Breathing moderate- to-high levels of acetone for short periods of time, however, can cause nose, throat, lung, and eye irritation; headaches; light-headedness; confusion; increased pulse rate; effects on blood; nausea; vomiting; unconsciousness and possibly coma; and shortening of the menstrual cycle in women.
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited March 2004
    Personally, I use a 50/50 mixture of isopropyl alcohol and xylene for cleaning both the heatsink and the proc because it quickly cuts both tims or paste and leaves absolutely no residue. However, you all probably can't find this as it's an industrial mix used for running tests oil/synthetic based invert drilling fluids. The IPA/Xylene does have a smell, but is much safer to use than acetone and dries relatively quickly.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2004
    I just use the alcohol.
  • profdlpprofdlp The Holy City Of Westlake, Ohio
    edited March 2004
    Stupid question time, but since no one else asked it, I will:

    You couldn't by chance have installed the heat sink backwards the second time around, could you? (It's easy enough to do...)

    In one test of about half-a-dozen HS pastes, Radio Shack's brand did surprisingly well. I can't see it being responsible for a 10 degree + rise in temp. You are only applying it to the raised core of the cpu in the center, right?

    As others have mentioned, make sure the "bubble gum" pad is clear off of there. If you don't want to mess with chemicals, try scraping it off with your fingernail, then buffing the living dog-squeeze out of it with paper towels. It takes some effort, but will eventually get you a nice smooth surface with risking scratches (like razor blades can cause).

    Where are your 80MM case fans located and which way are they blowing?
  • GobblesGobbles Ventura California
    edited March 2004
    mine idles at 42c with the stock HSF and some AS3...

    it to is a 2500+, you would be better off using the stock HSF... and your case temps are kinda warm... my case is only 24c and ive got 3 fans off, running only the 2 exhaust fans in upper rear..

    Gobbles
  • TemplarTemplar You first.
    edited March 2004
    Sounds like that eBay seller pulled a fast one on you. I suggest you email him to either get his facts straight or demand a replacement, free of charge and shipping (you will, of course need to send the current one back, preferably with the grease still applied :D )

    Most any heatsink you buy now-a-days will handle practically every AMD chip, so that guy at the computer store must've been using the stock heatsink while the thing was overclocked. My 3.2ghz folding box runs at about 58*C constantly, while this box might rise to 50*C while folding @ 3200+ speeds. I just got me a square aluminum CoolerMaster heatsink with the same-brand fan, and it keeps it rather cool. If I ever overclock past 3200+, I'll consider a new heatsink, like a Thermalright SLK-900A with a massive 92mm fan on top.
  • TimTim Southwest PA Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    There was never a sponge pad of any kind on the bottom of this heat sink. It was flat aluminum with nothing else except a thin layer of the paste.

    I'll try cleaning it off and giving it a thin layer only.

    I doubt I had the heat sink reversed, because there's not a lot of room between the processor and power supply.

    I actually disassembled the heat sink and turned the clip around so the release lever was on the other side.

    I bent the clip a little to slightly reduce the mounting tension because I was afraid of breaking something before the clips engaged.

    It was taking a lot of force to go on otherwise.

    The eBay auction and the actual box said the same thing. The parts about the 3200+ capability and it having copper in it. It had neither.
  • a2jfreaka2jfreak Houston, TX Member
    edited March 2004
    Seems like the ol' "switch-a-roo."
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    MJO wrote:
    Geeky1:
    That is correct, but in small amounts it shouldn't do any harm.

    Look here:
    http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts21.html


    But if you forgot to put the cap on the acetone:

    Acetone will not eat through Nitrile gloves that mechanics in the US use for chemical protection, and if you use it in well ventilated place you will not have problems. I used it a lot on the paint mixing bench at the hardware chain I worked at for 13 years while going to school part time.

    We did not have a hood, just a good store ventilation system. And I was SPARING with the stuff-- used as little as possible. If it is at all warm out, I clean Heatsinks outside.

    Ditto for Lacquer Thinner (how to use safely), though that is NOT for Heatsinks of copper or aluminum kind, have had it leave a very quickly created oxidized coating and oxidized stuff is no good for getting heat away from chips.

    John D.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2004
    Yes that definitely false advertising. You didnt get what was advertised.

    You have a link to it?
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    mmonnin wrote:
    Yes that definitely false advertising. You didnt get what was advertised.

    You have a link to it?

    While we are at it, eBay has a Safe Harbor area now. If the seller gets unresponsive, report him or her and the bad transaction. If your transaction does not qualify, and you paid with credit card, tell seller to make good or you will have charge reversed. I am doing this last thing myself with one sale, but that was not even on ebay. I have had a friend do the Safe Harbor thing, though, and it turned out that the motherboard he got was not the version advertised. He got instructions as to how to do what he wanted with board from seller and then got half his money back as he kept the board. He had to tell the seller first that either seller took good care of him or he would go teh Safe Harbor route with the transaction.

    Any way we could get a web-optimized digital picture of the actual HS that you got after it was shipped??? Someone might be able to ID what the heck it really is.... Then you could go back to the seller and say, "hey look, youo advertised this, adn instead shipped THIS..." That also has been known to help with eBay's Safe Harbor, digital photos of what you got versus a link to actual HS advertised will convince them well....

    John D.
  • speed_xspeed_x
    edited March 2004
    Whatever you replace it with make sure you get a top quality heatsink/fan.
    The two most basic things for overclocking are a good power supply and a very good heatsink/fan.
    The days when you could just put on any 'ol thing are gone. A fact about this, Intel is coming out with new computer case proposals that will give the newer components more cooling efficiency..a good idea, I think.
  • TimTim Southwest PA Icrontian
    edited March 2004
    Search auction number 3460467162 on eBay. That's the auction I bid on.

    I got exactly what was in the picture. The auction and the BOX it came in said it had copper in it, but it does not.
  • mmonninmmonnin Centreville, VA
    edited March 2004
    The text specs are wrong. Look at the box

    P4
    Duron
    Thunderbird
    P3
    Tualatin P3

    No where does it say XP. And no way in hell an Aluminum HS and a fan that pushes 25 CFM will cool a 3200+.
  • profdlpprofdlp The Holy City Of Westlake, Ohio
    edited March 2004
    You're not the only one...

    "Item not as described. Returned. Will not make a refund."

    :werr:
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