Intel P4 or AMD 64?

snwbrdrxtremesnwbrdrxtreme T-town (the aroma of Tacoma)
edited January 2005 in Hardware
I know this has probably been debated over a hundred time already on here, but I want to know from the expert what they think now on this subject. Listed in my sig. was my system that I have had for over a couple years and knew it was about time to upgrade. Well that time has come due to the MB going south on me. I have been doing a little research on a P4 set up and an AMD 64. I cant really decide which way to go. I have a laptop that is P4 2.8 (Dell Inspiron 5100) I like the performance from it. Is it worth it to go to 64bit now or stick with 32 for now? The Cash isnt as important as not having to upgrade in a year later. But if there isnt going to be a new operating system with software that REQUIRES 64 bit computing in the next 2-3 years, why should I go 64 bit now? Thanks for taking the time to read my post and replying with your knowledge and opinions.

Corey
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Comments

  • maximusbadmaximusbad The Burg
    edited January 2005
    Actually I read an article not too long ago on here that Microsoft might be releasing WinXP 64-Bit Edition in April and also that Intel might release their version of a 64-bit processor, I myself have and AMD 64 and a P4 but I like the AMD alot better. If your wanting 64-bit performance for when WinXP 64 comes out get the AMD 64 or you can wait for Intel to release their version of a 64-bit chip. Anyway I say go AMD and if you can get the AMD 64 FX series.
  • GHoosdumGHoosdum Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    In most applications, the performance you'd get out of the AMD will be more reliable than the Intel. That is, the AMD will pretty much give you good performance under all situations. The P4 will give you good performance in some situations, and not so good performance in others. Additionally, heat is a major concern with the P4, where the AMD64 systems have a significantly lower issue with heat.
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    Here's how this works...

    The Athlon 64 of any sort can beat current P4s with a 1.1GHz clock deficit in anything BUT applications that are:
    -SSE3-optimized
    -Constantly filling the pipeline (Media encoding (MPEG2/XViD/DiVX..))

    The margin widens in the Athlon's favor when applications:
    -Use significant memory bandwidth
    -Favor low-latency memory access
    -Are FPU intensive
    -Use significant system bandwidth
    -Favor high-speed inter-CPU links (IE, SMP server tasks)

    This means that an Athlon 64 4000+ at 2.4GHz is faster than a 3.5GHz p4 (Generally faster than a 3.6).

    What does AMD always lose at?:
    XViD, DiVX, MPEG2, and MP3 encoding (Though there are a few exceptions).
    SSE3-optimized tasks.
    And anything else that uses Intel-only instructions and/or keeps the P4's grotesque pipeline filled.


    Basically it works like this, to put it very simply:

    If the Athlon is 1MHz-1200MHz slower, it's going to win a benchmark on anything that doesn't <i>depend</i> on clockspeed. It'll win in games, office apps, rendering, DB transactions, server transactions, floating point calcs, most synthetic benchmarks and so on.
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited January 2005
    There's been some great points brought up in the posts answering you so far, snwbrdrxtreme. I have both types machines and I'll give you my feeling on the performance of both. :)

    If you run a lot of apps at the same time, the P4 systems (that have hyperthreading enabled) feel a little smoother than a single proc A64 system and more like a dual processor machine (most of the time, when the multiple apps can keep that absurdly long pipeline continuously filled). My A64 system is much more responsive with only 1 or 2 apps open than the P4 machines though. Plus, even my Northwood P4 systems pump out significantly more heat (and use significantly more power) than the A64 system, which makes A64 much easier to keep cool even under severely demanding tasks, such as Folding@Home. With the Prescott P4 procs, the heat and power issued is even worse than with Intel's previous generation Northwood processors because the Prescotts actually consume more power and radiate more heat than Northwood.

    Another fact to consider is upgradeability. Intel's present LGA775 boards will not be able to run the future dual core Intel processors; they will require a new chipset to run them(this has been officially stated by Intel). Although it hasn't been officially stated in bold terms straight from AMD (that I've seen yet at least), it looks like today's socket 939 and socket 940 boards will be able to upgrade to at least the first generation dual core A64 procs with at most a bios flash, at least until they switch over to using ddr2 for memory(which will require a redesigned memory controller on the proc). Plus, AMD should shortly be coming out with a new revision of the 90nm procs that will have the SSE3 instruction set included in them, so that advantage that Prescott presently has is about to be erased. And just because the A64 processor is 64 bit capable doesn't mean that you have to use a 64 bit OS with it; it's still smoking fast with regular Windows 2000 or 32 bit XP.

    In my opinion, the A64 based system has a lot more going for it presently and in the future than a P4 Prescott based system. Less heat, more upgradability and the ability to seamlessly upgrade from 32 bit to 64 bit OS are the deciding factors. :)
  • snwbrdrxtremesnwbrdrxtreme T-town (the aroma of Tacoma)
    edited January 2005
    Thanks for all the replys. What my wife and I do is: Wife=eBay stuff (Picture downloading, cropping, listing on eBay, shipping including printing labels) She also prints out the kids pictures for the family and surfs the web. Myself= time effectiveness. I burn music or data, DL music or programs, Surf, organize stuff, and listen to music all at the same time. I dont game much on the PC due to its in the back room and with the kids it easier to turn on the XBOX in the front room. After they get older, I will build an all-out gamer to rock on, but for now I need an efficient system that can multi-task like a mofo. My system that was going was so-so but still slow. So it sounds like a64 would be price effective but P4 would multi-task better? Thats what I got for now, whatcha think guys?

    Thanks

    Corey
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited January 2005
    I don't see any reason to give any merrit to upgradeablilty... Yea maybe in the first 6 months or so but usually most people spend the most money they can afford at the time of rebuild that makes most have to wait quite a bit before they can really think about upgrading and usually by the time they are ready the platforum has changed.

    I don't feel that you should consider upgradeing when picking out a new system.

    Expandibility yes upgradeing no... Plus 64bit drivers for older stuff is almost nonexistant.

    I think that unless you have to be on the cutting edge this is a bad time to make the jump to 64bit. If it was me I'd just find a replacement to all the stuff that you have now and wait a year. By this time next year the 64bit platforum outlook will be clearer and more robust with more support for software and stuff.

    You guys are gonna flame me for this post but, I must say that I know the guy, which he's an awsome dude... But realy he does a lot of converting stuff to MP3 other than that its really every day stuff. Loading up a pic from a digital camera, very little editing to the pic itself, then it goes into a template that is uploaded to a web page to sell ebay stuff... other than that, that is it... Sure he might play music at the same time he/she surfs and there maybe a crap load of internet windows up with email so responces to questions can be answered quickly, so multi-tasking is of importance. But it was mentioned in an earlier post that Intels do a better job with MP3 and SSE functions and muilt-tasking is better on the P4 HT.
    Also, no one has mentioned that the next generation of P4s are supposed to be baised on the Pentium M core so they will be better than they are now and run cooler on less voltage...

    Also it is important to point out that his better half does most of the working on the machine that is in question. He maintains the function part but she is really the client... Its gotta work like a work station for her. It can't be crapping out because of a flakey 64bit driver while shes trying to get to listing her auctions.... She is an Ebay store owner and Ebay plays a key roll in providing for the family. So its important that shes working on a platforum that is almost bullet proof.

    I know that you guys want to send him on his way to 64bit land, and I'm sure he wants to go there too, but I'm not sure at this time in his situation that its the right call...

    He needs a system fix now and its got to be rock solid, not like the AMD/VIA KT133 days which Rock Soild was BS...

    It's just me but I think that AMD 64bit is just plain to new. A good 64bit board and chip, not entery level is too costly and not proven...

    IMHO,
    "g"
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited January 2005
    snwbrdrxtreme wrote:
    I need an efficient system that can multi-task like a mofo.

    How much multitasking are we talking about here? How many windows open at once, etc? And what's the most you'd be willing to spend?
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited January 2005
    snwbrdrxtreme, from what you are saying, it sounds like you'd rather go with the P4 to me. The HT feature does help quite a bit with certain programs running together, but not all. If you are running something that can already keep the pipeline of the P4 architecture pretty full, you will see little help at all with keeping everything running smoothly because HT isn't like a true dual processor machine, with 2 dedicated physical procs. With that said, I still use my P4 for my main machine at the house; it might be inefficient but it does work well. ;)

    Also, even though you won't be able to go with a dual core P4 in today's present LGA775 motherboards, you will be able to upgrade to an EM64T (what Intel calls their x86-64 capable procs) P4 with a bios upgrade at most. One thing about them (the newest stepping P4 procs) though is that the reports I've read online are saying that even though their idle temps are running lower than the older steppings, the newest stepping at the highest speeds are having cooling problems and clock throttling problems using the stock Intel cooler. This can be worked around though by using a premium aftermarket heatsink such as a Thermalright XP90 or XP120 with a fairly quiet 92 or 120mm fan. One other thing to consider if you plan to go with a P4 and a lot of folks don't think about it is computer placement. A lot of computer desks have that enclosed compartment to stick your case into and they have absolutely dreadful ventilation and I guarantee you that if a modern P4 is stuck in something like that you will be cooking something in the computer fairly quickly. You probably won't kill the proc because the P4 has built in clock throttling but leaving the rest of the components in the case confined in one of those compartments will heat soak the rest of the computer and will lead to thermal failure of something. Be sure to keep that P4 where it can get decent ventilation.

    Since microsoft should be coming out with a 64 bit version of XP this year, you will see driver development start moving right along real soon and I think that having the 64 bit capability built into your new purchase is important (whichever way you go), IMO.

    "G", the next few generations of P4 aren't going to be based on Pentium M, unfortunately. Intel is being stoopid IMO and keeping it based on Netburst room heaters for the next few generations. There will be a dual core P-M in thefuture but it will still be for mobile and possibly blade server useage, from all that I've read. Plus, I do like the idea that here in the future I will have the option to drop a dual core A64 into my present board. That will give me a fairly cheap option to build a dually A64 machine without having to buy a new mobo, 2 procs, registered ddr and so forth. I really do love the smoothness of a dual processor machine. :thumbsup: I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can with giving your buddy the facts as I see them at the moment, "g". I'm not a "AMDroid" or "Intel Fanboy", just a person who build and uses what he thinks is the better solution at the time.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited January 2005
    Mudd: All I can say about HT on a single CPU machine is that I'm thoroughly unimpressed. I had peerguardian and a P2P program running on my laptop the other day and it felt just as slow as my old laptop did with the same kind of load... :-/ On the other hand, it seems to work fine on my dual Xeon system *shrugs*
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited January 2005
    muddocktor wrote:
    snwbrdrxtreme, from what you are saying, it sounds like you'd rather go with the P4 to me. The HT feature does help quite a bit with certain programs running together, but not all. If you are running something that can already keep the pipeline of the P4 architecture pretty full, you will see little help at all with keeping everything running smoothly because HT isn't like a true dual processor machine, with 2 dedicated physical procs. With that said, I still use my P4 for my main machine at the house; it might be inefficient but it does work well. ;)

    Also, even though you won't be able to go with a dual core P4 in today's present LGA775 motherboards, you will be able to upgrade to an EM64T (what Intel calls their x86-64 capable procs) P4 with a bios upgrade at most. One thing about them (the newest stepping P4 procs) though is that the reports I've read online are saying that even though their idle temps are running lower than the older steppings, the newest stepping at the highest speeds are having cooling problems and clock throttling problems using the stock Intel cooler. This can be worked around though by using a premium aftermarket heatsink such as a Thermalright XP90 or XP120 with a fairly quiet 92 or 120mm fan. One other thing to consider if you plan to go with a P4 and a lot of folks don't think about it is computer placement. A lot of computer desks have that enclosed compartment to stick your case into and they have absolutely dreadful ventilation and I guarantee you that if a modern P4 is stuck in something like that you will be cooking something in the computer fairly quickly. You probably won't kill the proc because the P4 has built in clock throttling but leaving the rest of the components in the case confined in one of those compartments will heat soak the rest of the computer and will lead to thermal failure of something. Be sure to keep that P4 where it can get decent ventilation.

    Since microsoft should be coming out with a 64 bit version of XP this year, you will see driver development start moving right along real soon and I think that having the 64 bit capability built into your new purchase is important (whichever way you go), IMO.

    "G", the next few generations of P4 aren't going to be based on Pentium M, unfortunately. Intel is being stoopid IMO and keeping it based on Netburst room heaters for the next few generations. There will be a dual core P-M in thefuture but it will still be for mobile and possibly blade server useage, from all that I've read. Plus, I do like the idea that here in the future I will have the option to drop a dual core A64 into my present board. That will give me a fairly cheap option to build a dually A64 machine without having to buy a new mobo, 2 procs, registered ddr and so forth. I really do love the smoothness of a dual processor machine. :thumbsup: I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can with giving your buddy the facts as I see them at the moment, "g". I'm not a "AMDroid" or "Intel Fanboy", just a person who build and uses what he thinks is the better solution at the time.

    Thanks Mudd, its all good, I appreciate you're candidness and honesty. Thats what he was looking for...


    Cheers,
    "g"
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited January 2005
    Geeky1 wrote:
    Mudd: All I can say about HT on a single CPU machine is that I'm thoroughly unimpressed. I had peerguardian and a P2P program running on my laptop the other day and it felt just as slow as my old laptop did with the same kind of load... :-/ On the other hand, it seems to work fine on my dual Xeon system *shrugs*

    Like I said in my last post, I think the effectiveness of HT varies on what is running. Some apps evidently can keep the pipeline busier than others and if 1 program can keep it pretty full, it doesn't leave a whole bunch of processing time for the others running without getting into the original proggies cpu time. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say here. :) On your dual xeon rig, you also have 2 physical procs as well as 2 virtual procs, which really smooths out load balancing I imagine.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited January 2005
    Depending on how much multitasking snwbrdrxtreme is doing, might I propose a dual CPU system?


    Yeah, I might. ;D

    How about something along the lines of this? This'll handle multitasking quite well... :D

    ASUS PC-DL Deluxe Mobo from monarchcomputers.com ($196, newegg doesn't have it anymore)

    Chenming Beige Mid Tower case, Model "601AW-F-0" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16811125471
    $50.00

    Lite-On White 52X32X52 Internal EIDE CD-RW Drive, Model SOHR-5238S, Retail
    Item# N82E16827106940
    $25.50

    Lite-On 16X DVD Dual Drive, Model SOHW-1633S Beige, Retail
    Item# N82E16827106960
    $58.99

    2x Swiftech heatsink for Intel XEON processors with 800Mhz system bus (socket 604), Model "MCX604-V" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16835108046
    2x $63.50 = $127.00

    Arctic Cooling VGA Cooler, Model "ATI silencer 2" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16835186114
    $26.49

    7x Thermaltake SMART CASE FAN II. Variable Fan Speed Control, by temperature sensor
    Item# N82E16835999111
    7x $6.99 = $48.93

    Alps Beige 3.5inch Floppy Disk Drive, Model DF354H068F, OEM
    Item# N82E16821103301
    $7.00

    2x Maxtor 160GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, MODEL 6Y160M0, OEM Drive Only
    Item# N82E16822144322
    2 @ $95.00 = $190.00

    4x Mushkin 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail
    Item# N82E16820146219
    4 @ $68.50 = $274.00

    Fortron 550W EPS12V PSU, Supports Dual Xeon CPU, Model "FSP550-60PLN" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16817104973
    $94.00

    2x Intel Xeon 2.8 GHz 533MHz FSB, 512K Cache, Hyper Threading Technology - Retail
    Item# N82E16819117016
    2 @ $279.00 = $558.00

    SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600XT Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP
    Item# N82E16814102460
    $136.00

    Total from Newegg: $1,595.91
    Plus Mobo from Monarch: $196.00
    Total: $1791.91

    And I guarantee you that thing will multitask like nobody's business. How do I know? Because save for the graphics card, storage, and some other minor details, it's the same as my dual Xeon system. And it's damn fast. And that 9600XT will even handle some light gaming. :)
  • madmatmadmat
    edited January 2005
    Personally from reading what he does with his machine I'd suggest just going with an old school socket 478 P4c of about 3.0ghz and an i875p based mobo (DFI Lan Party Pro 875b) and a gig of the new TCCD ram and salvage as much of his old rig as he can.

    Maybe step up to a larger SATA HDD and a bigger PSU but for net surfing/light pic editing/non-gaming duties the GF2 TI will be more than sufficient. No need to lay down major cash on a new graphics card that will never be taxed.

    The P4c's are decent CPU's, are faster clock for clock than the prescott's and run cooler as well and right now they're cheaper than going with LGA 775 procs as well.

    Just my 2c's worth.
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited January 2005
    muddocktor wrote:
    On your dual xeon rig, you also have 2 physical procs as well as 2 virtual procs, which really smooths out load balancing I imagine.

    Oh yea, it is definately smoothly load balancing... I still love my Xeons even at 2.2 400 FSB

    Shes a good little system, at some point I hope to top her out with 3.0ghz HTs and a SCSI dirve system, upgrade the vid card to sometihng newer should feel awsome... even at 400 FSB and 32bit... :)

    "g"
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited January 2005
    madmat wrote:
    Personally from reading what he does with his machine I'd suggest just going with an old school socket 478 P4c of about 3.0ghz and an i875p based mobo (DFI Lan Party Pro 875b) and a gig of the new TCCD ram and salvage as much of his old rig as he can.

    Maybe step up to a larger SATA HDD and a bigger PSU but for net surfing/light pic editing/non-gaming duties the GF2 TI will be more than sufficient. No need to lay down major cash on a new graphics card that will never be taxed.

    The P4c's are decent CPU's, are faster clock for clock than the prescott's and run cooler as well and right now they're cheaper than going with LGA 775 procs as well.

    Just my 2c's worth.

    I think thats the direction hes thinking about...

    Also Geeky, I'm sure that he'd take a dualie and at the price of an old school AMD setup it might be in his wheelhouse... Really haven't discussed that with him... He really doesn't need anything but a board and CPU maybe ram depending if he needs to jump up to faster DDR.
    He already had all of the CDrom/Burnrers that are upto date and his case is a full tower and he just bought a new 450w PSU to replace the one that just burned up....

    He wants to get a new Video card in the deal too so where ever he can save will help...

    On a side note I was able to get his board back up again, it was his CPU, I was able to scrounge up one for him that worked... but I know he will want to upgrade soon anyhow...

    Thanks for all the help guys,
    "g"
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited January 2005
    I suppose it depends on how much he's got to spend. He said in his first post that the cost wasn't as important as some other stuff... *shrugs* it also depends on how serious he is about multitasking. I had close to 300 images open in photoshop the other day with the Xeon system, along with like 15 Firefox windows and a bunch of IM conversations, and I noticed no slowdowns at all. :)
  • snwbrdrxtremesnwbrdrxtreme T-town (the aroma of Tacoma)
    edited January 2005
    Geeky1 wrote:
    Depending on how much multitasking snwbrdrxtreme is doing, might I propose a dual CPU system?


    Yeah, I might. ;D

    How about something along the lines of this? This'll handle multitasking quite well... :D

    ASUS PC-DL Deluxe Mobo from monarchcomputers.com ($196, newegg doesn't have it anymore)

    Chenming Beige Mid Tower case, Model "601AW-F-0" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16811125471
    $50.00

    Lite-On White 52X32X52 Internal EIDE CD-RW Drive, Model SOHR-5238S, Retail
    Item# N82E16827106940
    $25.50

    Lite-On 16X DVD Dual Drive, Model SOHW-1633S Beige, Retail
    Item# N82E16827106960
    $58.99

    2x Swiftech heatsink for Intel XEON processors with 800Mhz system bus (socket 604), Model "MCX604-V" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16835108046
    2x $63.50 = $127.00

    Arctic Cooling VGA Cooler, Model "ATI silencer 2" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16835186114
    $26.49

    7x Thermaltake SMART CASE FAN II. Variable Fan Speed Control, by temperature sensor
    Item# N82E16835999111
    7x $6.99 = $48.93

    Alps Beige 3.5inch Floppy Disk Drive, Model DF354H068F, OEM
    Item# N82E16821103301
    $7.00

    2x Maxtor 160GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, MODEL 6Y160M0, OEM Drive Only
    Item# N82E16822144322
    2 @ $95.00 = $190.00

    4x Mushkin 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail
    Item# N82E16820146219
    4 @ $68.50 = $274.00

    Fortron 550W EPS12V PSU, Supports Dual Xeon CPU, Model "FSP550-60PLN" -RETAIL
    Item# N82E16817104973
    $94.00

    2x Intel Xeon 2.8 GHz 533MHz FSB, 512K Cache, Hyper Threading Technology - Retail
    Item# N82E16819117016
    2 @ $279.00 = $558.00

    SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600XT Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP
    Item# N82E16814102460
    $136.00

    Total from Newegg: $1,595.91
    Plus Mobo from Monarch: $196.00
    Total: $1791.91

    And I guarantee you that thing will multitask like nobody's business. How do I know? Because save for the graphics card, storage, and some other minor details, it's the same as my dual Xeon system. And it's damn fast. And that 9600XT will even handle some light gaming. :)

    Thanks for taking the time to type all that out.. If I had the cash I would be all over it! I know I said the cost wasnt as much as a factor, but I was refering to having to upgrade to 64 bit now vs. upgrading to a better machine thats stable. I will probably be dropping about 600-800 dollars on a MB, CPU, Memory, Maybe a Video card but not as Important. Im leaning towards a P4C800-e deluxe MB, either a 2.8-3.0 P4 HT, and a gig of memory. Unless someone knows a better board, I thought this one would be the best for my application. Whats the model# on the HT P4's 2.8-3.0? Whats the best Ram for the $? Thanks again for all of your guy's help. I havent read up on PC stuff for a couple of years, so Im trying to get back up to speed. GTGHM, you da man! How's the Racer2 coming along? Im going to try to look at mine this week and THINK about tearing her down for the rebuild. :eek:

    Corey
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    I want to get this out of the way right now:

    The AMD "Instability" myth is dead. It's been dead since 2002.

    People can stop bringing it up now.

    Thanks.
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited January 2005
    It was dead long before 2002...
  • ThraxThrax 🐌 Austin, TX Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    No, not really. Prior to 2002, the KT266A/KT133 were still commonplace.. They weren't precisely stable. It wasn't until the KT333 was released in Q2'02, and the nForce2 in Q4'02 that the Athlon received stability.
  • rykoryko new york
    edited January 2005
    i will try to answer some of your questions...

    i think the asus p4c800e-dlx is probably the best 875 based board out there, however it still costs about $180. you can find an abit ic7-g for around $130, and it is almost as good.

    also i think you want a p4 2.8c or 3.0c -- that's the cooler running northwood core. You can find a retail p4 2.8e or 3.0e (prescott core) for $10-15 cheaper though.

    and best RAM for the money... well samsungs' new tccd chips are the best. they run super low cas 2.2.2.5 at default speed and o/c over 250 easily with a little voltage increase. however, i don't think that it is completely neccessary for you. You can still get some very good RAM and save some money. If you don't want to o/c at all, then you can get 1gb of corsair or mushkin valueRAM for around $140.

    here's what i found after a quick peek at newegg...

    abit ic7-g = $135
    http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-127-152&DEPA=0

    intel p4 3.0c -oem = $205
    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-163&depa=1

    patriot/pdp sys 1gb pc3200, cas 2.3.2.5 (2x512) = $178
    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-220-006&depa=1

    rosewill 9600xt , 128mb, 128bit, agp8x = $129
    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-164-008&depa=1

    Now if you decide to go w/ a prescott core like this one below...

    p4 3.0e - retail = $181
    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-171&depa=1

    then you need to get a good hsf like this...

    thermalright xp-90
    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=35-109-119&depa=1

    thermaltake 90mm, 78+cfm, blue led fan
    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-999-121&depa=1
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    Wow, so many good posts.

    Thrax - you're right. The VIA chipset stability problems were not solved by 2002. Geeky, you are partially correct. The Via KT266 and yes, even the KT133A chipsets could be integrated into a completely stable system, if (BIG if) the system builder took great pains in exhaustive research to procure exactly the optimum components for campatiblity and the precise combination of best device drivers. That was a very difficult proposition. For me, I'd say the instability issues with VIA-based motherboards disappeared in 2000, because I was meticulous in device and driver selections and integration. But it was no simple feat. As an aside, I venture to say that Via would still be crap if it weren't for the competition forced on them by NVidia's NForce chipsets. To this day, I'd be hard pressed to purchase any Via-based motherboard.

    I do roll my eyes though when when purportedly hardware knowledgeable people say caution against AMD systems because of "stability problems". It tells me right away that they haven't kept up with technology advancements; particulary that they haven't done much hands-on in at least three years. My mind tells me that their main sources of information are Intel marketing and circumlocution (ignorant people repeating the same, worn out stories back and forth).

    To the poster who recommended the P4C (Northwood) 2.8 in combination with an Intel 875 chipset board. Excellent choice. (See my System 1 in signature.) Just don't expect performance out of this machine to match the newer high end available from either AMD or Intel. And yes, the P4 in hyperthreading is superior under intense multitasking as compared to Athlon XP or non-HT P4s. I don't know about AMD 64 - never used a system based on that.

    Future systems for me? Yes, of course, they will be homebuilt. I doubt they will be Intel anything. AMD is where it's at as far as I'm concerned.
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited January 2005
    What Thrax says about AMD is dead right, no instability problems. With that said, now let me give you what I'd pick for your P4 system. :D

    Motherboard - I would go with the Abit IC7-G Max Advance 2 instead of the Asus P4C800E-Dlx for the following reason: Abit board, $135.00 vs. Asus, $180.00 - Plus the Abit mobo comes with a Serillel2 IDE>SATA adapter and has the same or more features as the Asus. The Asus board is a good board, but overpriced for what you get. I have that Abit board and I'm still overclocking the hell out of it ever since I got it (Christmas a year ago) and it's dead on stable. Save $45.00 and go the Abit. It also has very decent overclocking options if you are inclined to overclock your P4, as the Asus does too.

    Processor - It's getting harder to find Northwood 2.8C or 3.0C procs, Newegg only has an oem 3.0C Northie listed for $205. Zip Zoom Fly doesn't have them either in any flavor at 2.8 or 3.0, just Presshot's. Newegg also has 2.4C oem's for $137.00 and retail 2.4C's for $159. The 2.4C procs are pretty much a shoe-in to overclock to 3.0 if you are so inclined. If you decide to go with the oem 3.0C, I recommend you get a Thermalright XP90 or XP120 for very good, quiet cooling. the XP90 uses a 92mm fan and the XP120 uses a 120mm fan (which aren't included, BTW). Unless you are a big overclocker, I would stay away from a Presshot 2.8E or 3.0E as they are actually a bit slower than the Northwoods in a good majority of apps at this speed range and they run hotter.

    memory - Patriot 1G dual channel kit with 2-2-2-5 timings for $220. Uses the Samsung TCCD chips and Brainpower pcb. Great ram, will run tight timings up to around 220 fsb or so and will overclock up to around 275-280 fsb with looser timings. This is premium ddr here.


    Total so far:

    mobo - $135
    ram - $220
    proc - $205
    hsf,XP90 & 92mm fan - $39.99 +$11.99 (from SVC because Newegg wants to butt-rape on the XP90,with a speed adjustable Enermax fan)

    Total:$612 plus shipping. With this ram and mobo, you can also save around $60 and go with the 2.4C oem instead of the 3.0C oem and overclock it to 3.0 or better.
  • muddocktormuddocktor
    edited January 2005
    Here's another Intel route you might consider too; a desktop rig using a Pentium M Dothan proc. You can make a dead quiet machine with this and with damn good performance in the tasks you listed for you and your wife.

    mobo - DFI "855GME-MGF" - $239.00

    proc - Intel Pentium M 725 1.6GHz - $212.00

    memory - OCZ Performance Series 184-Pin 1GB DDR PC-3200 - $205.00

    Total: $656.00

    Now, a 1.6 GH Dothan doesn't sound like much but it looks like most all the Dothan procs will overclock to the 2.3-2.5 GHz range without even raising the vcore and P-M has such a low thermal footprint, it's extremely easy to cool. The DFI mobo also comes with a hsf for the mobo, so that's an expense you don't have with this setup. The board is mATX form factor but comes pretty well loaded, with an AGP slot, 3-PCi slots and a PCI-X slot for your fancy. It also has onboard gigabit ethernet, 2-SATA ports and 1394 ports too.
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Geeky, in my own way Naples, FL Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    Geeky1 wrote:
    Depending on how much multitasking snwbrdrxtreme is doing, might I propose a dual CPU system?


    Yeah, I might. ;D

    How about something along the lines of this? This'll handle multitasking quite well... :D

    ...
    Lite-On White 52X32X52 Internal EIDE CD-RW Drive, Model SOHR-5238S, Retail
    Item# N82E16827106940
    $25.50

    Lite-On 16X DVD Dual Drive, Model SOHW-1633S Beige, Retail
    Item# N82E16827106960
    $58.99

    ....

    I'd go for this instead of both the others quoted above:

    Sony DRU710A-- dual layer capable DVD\CD burner\reader (DVD +/-R, DVD +/-RW, DV D DL, CD\RW, CD-R) fast, comes with full Nero suite. Item # N82E16827131236 Price $89.99 Extremetech review "caught my eye."

    Other than that, I agree with Geeky1's specs.
  • gtghmgtghm New
    edited January 2005
    I'd like to clearify that I meant by instability or implied stability not necessearily AMD but more of the lack or infintial driver support for the 64bit platforum...

    I know that AMDs can be stable, SM20 proves that everyday... :) (AMD KG7 definately one of the best AMD platforums and chipsets ever made IMHO)

    Thanks for helping him out guys... :thumbsup:

    Snowboard, as for the racer2 still in peices haven't started on it yet... too busy with other stuff.. you know how it is...

    "g"
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited January 2005
    Thrax wrote:
    No, not really. Prior to 2002, the KT266A/KT133 were still commonplace.. They weren't precisely stable. It wasn't until the KT333 was released in Q2'02, and the nForce2 in Q4'02 that the Athlon received stability.

    And this is why there was the AMD 761/760MP/760MPX. Besides, that's a chipset issue, not a CPU issue. :p
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    It's really a mute point about the stable 760 series AMD chipsets. It's not like they were actually available to purchase!
  • Geeky1Geeky1 University of the Pacific (Stockton, CA, USA)
    edited January 2005
    News to me... my first athlon system had a 761 in it... :p
  • LeonardoLeonardo Wake up and smell the glaciers Eagle River, Alaska Icrontian
    edited January 2005
    I don't doubt it, Geeky. The 760 series chipsets were only produced so that initial motherboards would be available and so that Taiwan semiconducter manufacturers would have a pattern to follow. AMD HAD to produce initial chipsets, or there CPU's would have had no platform initially. They were available, but only in very small quantities. Once Via, SiS, et al began producing their chips in volume, AMD ceased production of their in-house chipsets. They just didn't (and still don't) have the capacity and capital to produce both CPUs and supporting chipsets. That has been a huge strength of Intel - they can afford both.

    Unfortunate that NVidia didn't get in the game with supporting chipsets four an five years ago. Had that happened, AMD would have much larger market share today.
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