People are forgetting that almost every single one of us joined into IC TF2 when it was only available as part of the Orange Box, which was a $50 retail value. That didn't keep people from checking out the game back then, or buying in to play with a fun community. It's crazy to me that anyone would think buying a fully featured title at one price (again, $40, lower than every other AAA title) free of F2P gimmicks and nonsense is no longer a viable or even appropriate way to play a PC game.
Free 2 Play pretty much sucks in every game it's implemented in. TF2 and League of Legends are the only two titles I can think of that make it work without insane amounts of account grinding, or offering unfair advantages to users that buy in and pay up. A pricing model that favors those with the most money or time spent grinding isn't innovative - it's exploitative.
I'm stoked Overwatch isn't implementing those kind of hooks, and I truly believe people will have a blast paying it. You know, as long as they're ok with actually buying a PC game for once.
To assuage LynxRage, I wasn't saying 'paid games are the devil,' just explaining the mindset some were noting. I don't know if I'll get Overwatch, but it'll be because of time issues, not monetary ones. I also don't necessarily think that a paid game weeds out all the jerks, because F2P doesn't have a monopoly on those (ask Xbox Live), but that's a different question.
Also... didn't people buy Orange Box for HL2:Ep2 and Portal, not TF2? Or am I thinking people got it for Ep2 and TF2, and Portal was the surprise? Either way, Ep2 was definitely the draw, not either of those games.
@UPSLynx said:
Free 2 Play pretty much sucks in every game it's implemented in. TF2 and League of Legends are the only two titles I can think of that make it work without insane amounts of account grinding, or offering unfair advantages to users that buy in and pay up. A pricing model that favors those with the most money or time spent grinding isn't innovative - it's exploitative.
I think TF2 succeeded as F2P largely because it was not F2P to start. It had a pretty damn big player base, and a strong community before. Again this is my thinking, no way to really know if I am right.
Everyone bought the Orange Box. It was one of the best quality game bundles ever released. It's crazy to think that HL2:Ep 2 turned out to be the least played of all the games in the Orange Box for me. Also TF2 being a part of the Orange Box 100% influenced my decision to buy it. But I played, Team Fortress (QuakeMod), TFC, Fortress Forever, etc. so it was huge on my anticipation scale.
The best F2P games are made by Valve imo. Dota 2 and TF2.
League doesn't require hours of grinding to get anywhere? wut? That's probably 75% of the reason I don't play that game anymore.
I would also throw in Path of Exile as a pretty well done F2P albeit not very newbie friendly.
@Linc said:
I think Valve made it pretty clear what good business sense it makes to give a game a decade-long lifespan, and the way they did that was with third-party servers they didn't need to manage and innovative pricing models. Just because EA and Blizzard want to stick with buy-it-and-done games in this genre doesn't mean the market has evaporated.
I present to you Diablo 2. Released on June 29, 2000 by the same company making Overwatch. Diablo 2 still has servers operating. If Blizzard does one thing it's support successful games for a very long time.
@Winfrey said:
League doesn't require hours of grinding to get anywhere? wut? That's probably 75% of the reason I don't play that game anymore.
I didn't mean that there was no grind to League (though I will say it's nowhere near as awful as games like Mechwarrior Online, World of Tanks / War Thunder, Blacklight Retribution, etc). I just mean that League's implementation is far less offensive in general, especially since you can't pay money for in-game advantages.
TF2 was the surprise winner in the Orange Box. The other games were also great, but only for single-player. After that, the full price for TF2 was 20$ for a very long time, then it was free.
There was no point when somebody would have had to pay 60$ to play TF2 with us.
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ChoochK-Pop authority™, Pho KingMadison Heights, MIIcrontian
Blizzard why you give me code!! I wanna play as D.Va!!
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DontCallMeKelsoKelso 'The Great Asshole'San Jose, CAIcrontian
@Church4252 said:
Blizzard why you give me code!! I wanna play as D.Va!!
No, no you can't D.Va is so OP, needs to be nerfed. Hate her ult.
Played about 7 rounds last night with roommate, was enjoyable. There is little to no margin for non-team players and uncoordinated play if they other team has anything like it (e.g. one guy selected a role last, that we were already heavy in and never changed throughout the game AFAIK, repeatedly ran into enemy death zones, etc), which is actually good, as long as you can get a good party going. I tried a smattering of heroes and had better luck with some, but its probably play styles + experience since they weren't too complicated.
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ChoochK-Pop authority™, Pho KingMadison Heights, MIIcrontian
edited November 2015
@DontCallMeKelso said:
No, no you can't D.Va is so OP, needs to be nerfed. Hate her ult.
@Tushon said:
There is little to no margin for non-team players and uncoordinated play if they other team has anything like it (e.g. one guy selected a role last, that we were already heavy in and never changed throughout the game
Totally. This game requires teams to coordinate, both during champ selection and during gameplay. I've been making an effort whenever I play with pubs to wait and lock in my hero until the last second, because like you mentioned, frequently pubs will just jump for the hero they like best, rather than looking at the full team comp to pick what hero would work the best.
When playing with a few other ICers, we were pretty damn formidable because of our communication. Makes a huge difference.
@UPSLynx said:
I didn't mean that there was no grind to League (though I will say it's nowhere near as awful as games like Mechwarrior Online, World of Tanks / War Thunder, Blacklight Retribution, etc). I just mean that League's implementation is far less offensive in general, especially since you can't pay money for in-game advantages.
Trust me, I can attest to that.
0
RahnalH102the Green Devout, Veteran Monster Hunter, Creature EnthusiastNew MexicoIcrontian
Blizzard announced they will be sending out a lot of invites this Thursday, November 19, in preparation for a stress test-ish weekend event. Be on the look out.
So would you say the TF2 is moba-ey? If overwatch has lanes, so does TF2 to the same extent (any push map has "lanes" around the cart). I haven't explicitly looked at the maps as lane-like, but I don't really see them that differently than TF2. TF2 has counters and hero types, though not necessarily as explicitly defined as Tank, Heal, etc. LoL and DOTA and Dungeon Defenders are MOBA; it seems like a stretch to me to throw Overwatch in there because a tank soaks a lot of attack damage.
Small team sizes (6v6), abilities (3 powers + 1 ult).
It's only missing creeps and character levels. It really feels much closer to playing something like DOTA or HOTS than TF2 ever has. That doesn't make OW a MOBA, but it very clearly and plentifully draws on that genre as an FPS.
0
RahnalH102the Green Devout, Veteran Monster Hunter, Creature EnthusiastNew MexicoIcrontian
The games Gigantic by Motiga, and Battleborn by Gearbox are in the same boat. Gigantic is the most MOBA like while Overwatch is a cross with TF2, and Battleborn is a cross with Borderlands (in story delivery).
This and creeps are my least favorite aspect of mobas. I think it's supposed to add complexity but I think it more waters down the product. Whenever I face another person I want us to be on the same footing not necessarily oh his ult is on cooldown attack now mind of stuff.
Also what are they at like 20 heroes where map size is 12 people. So a good number of heroes or whatever can't be used in any given game.
@Karma said:
Whenever I face another person I want us to be on the same footing not necessarily oh his ult is on cooldown attack now mind of stuff.
Ults in this game aren't really "press button to win" kind of things. They vary a lot depending on the character, and not all of them are damage-dealing. When I run into a player that fires off their ult, it rarely feels like an "I'm doomed" kind of moment. Ults in Overwatch can be countered as well with smart play.
Also, I wouldn't really say that Overwatch has "lanes", per se. Maps feel like TF2 in a sense that there's a main route with a few alternates to help get around the bottlenecks. Doesn't make a huge difference, but just stating for those on the fence about "MOBA" vs. "TF2".
I can not describe the feeling I have about this. My want to play this game dwindles with every post I see of others getting into the beta and I don't know why. I've always been able to not give a shit in the past. Why you do dis Blizzard? Why? GIBBI stress test access! I Know U HAZ!
Seriously, I think the "moba" qualities are being overblown. This game feels like a faster version of TF2 with better graphics. The only main difference is the "ult" that isn't an instant win, but certainly stronger than "normal" play.
2
RahnalH102the Green Devout, Veteran Monster Hunter, Creature EnthusiastNew MexicoIcrontian
Try thinking of it this way:
In TF2 the different strengths and options in the weapons allow you to alter the gameplay of the class. Effectively making sub-classes or in some cases all new classes (Demo Knight) but all still in 1 character.
In Overwatch, those same "loadouts" are static and assigned to 1 character each. All the other moba-esque shooters have had their keybindings set so that it still feels like a shooter very much. Left-click to main attack, right click to secondary. Other 2 keys near WASD for the 3rd and the Ult, similar to say a grenade key. I would imagine it's similar in Overwatch.
I haven't been able to play yet so I'm not 100% on their abilities, but there are 3 Demoman-esque characters in Overwatch. 1 basic grenadier who can also fly (Pharah), 1 sticky grenadier who can also sticky jump (Junkrat), and 1 being the charge & melee nut (Reinhardt).
In TF2 the different strengths and options in the weapons allow you to alter the gameplay of the class. Effectively making sub-classes or in some cases all new classes (Demo Knight) but all still in 1 character.
You kinda just highlighted one of my least favorite aspects of the new TF2.
Comments
People are forgetting that almost every single one of us joined into IC TF2 when it was only available as part of the Orange Box, which was a $50 retail value. That didn't keep people from checking out the game back then, or buying in to play with a fun community. It's crazy to me that anyone would think buying a fully featured title at one price (again, $40, lower than every other AAA title) free of F2P gimmicks and nonsense is no longer a viable or even appropriate way to play a PC game.
Free 2 Play pretty much sucks in every game it's implemented in. TF2 and League of Legends are the only two titles I can think of that make it work without insane amounts of account grinding, or offering unfair advantages to users that buy in and pay up. A pricing model that favors those with the most money or time spent grinding isn't innovative - it's exploitative.
I'm stoked Overwatch isn't implementing those kind of hooks, and I truly believe people will have a blast paying it. You know, as long as they're ok with actually buying a PC game for once.
To assuage LynxRage, I wasn't saying 'paid games are the devil,' just explaining the mindset some were noting. I don't know if I'll get Overwatch, but it'll be because of time issues, not monetary ones. I also don't necessarily think that a paid game weeds out all the jerks, because F2P doesn't have a monopoly on those (ask Xbox Live), but that's a different question.
Also... didn't people buy Orange Box for HL2:Ep2 and Portal, not TF2? Or am I thinking people got it for Ep2 and TF2, and Portal was the surprise? Either way, Ep2 was definitely the draw, not either of those games.
I think TF2 succeeded as F2P largely because it was not F2P to start. It had a pretty damn big player base, and a strong community before. Again this is my thinking, no way to really know if I am right.
But anyways fuck freet to play.
Everyone bought the Orange Box. It was one of the best quality game bundles ever released. It's crazy to think that HL2:Ep 2 turned out to be the least played of all the games in the Orange Box for me. Also TF2 being a part of the Orange Box 100% influenced my decision to buy it. But I played, Team Fortress (QuakeMod), TFC, Fortress Forever, etc. so it was huge on my anticipation scale.
The best F2P games are made by Valve imo. Dota 2 and TF2.
League doesn't require hours of grinding to get anywhere? wut? That's probably 75% of the reason I don't play that game anymore.
I would also throw in Path of Exile as a pretty well done F2P albeit not very newbie friendly.
I present to you Diablo 2. Released on June 29, 2000 by the same company making Overwatch. Diablo 2 still has servers operating. If Blizzard does one thing it's support successful games for a very long time.
I didn't mean that there was no grind to League (though I will say it's nowhere near as awful as games like Mechwarrior Online, World of Tanks / War Thunder, Blacklight Retribution, etc). I just mean that League's implementation is far less offensive in general, especially since you can't pay money for in-game advantages.
I can agree with that.
TF2 was the surprise winner in the Orange Box. The other games were also great, but only for single-player. After that, the full price for TF2 was 20$ for a very long time, then it was free.
There was no point when somebody would have had to pay 60$ to play TF2 with us.
Blizzard why you give me code!! I wanna play as D.Va!!
No, no you can't D.Va is so OP, needs to be nerfed. Hate her ult.
Played about 7 rounds last night with roommate, was enjoyable. There is little to no margin for non-team players and uncoordinated play if they other team has anything like it (e.g. one guy selected a role last, that we were already heavy in and never changed throughout the game AFAIK, repeatedly ran into enemy death zones, etc), which is actually good, as long as you can get a good party going. I tried a smattering of heroes and had better luck with some, but its probably play styles + experience since they weren't too complicated.
you shut your whore mouth!!!
Totally. This game requires teams to coordinate, both during champ selection and during gameplay. I've been making an effort whenever I play with pubs to wait and lock in my hero until the last second, because like you mentioned, frequently pubs will just jump for the hero they like best, rather than looking at the full team comp to pick what hero would work the best.
When playing with a few other ICers, we were pretty damn formidable because of our communication. Makes a huge difference.
Get good.
Trust me, I can attest to that.
Blizzard announced they will be sending out a lot of invites this Thursday, November 19, in preparation for a stress test-ish weekend event. Be on the look out.
I think in the end I'll skip this one. Getting to moba-ey for me.
Can you clarify what "moba-ey" means?
Overwatch is a MOBA/FPS hybrid with lanes, counters, hero types, etc.
So would you say the TF2 is moba-ey? If overwatch has lanes, so does TF2 to the same extent (any push map has "lanes" around the cart). I haven't explicitly looked at the maps as lane-like, but I don't really see them that differently than TF2. TF2 has counters and hero types, though not necessarily as explicitly defined as Tank, Heal, etc. LoL and DOTA and Dungeon Defenders are MOBA; it seems like a stretch to me to throw Overwatch in there because a tank soaks a lot of attack damage.
Other clear homages to the MOBA genre:
Small team sizes (6v6), abilities (3 powers + 1 ult).
It's only missing creeps and character levels. It really feels much closer to playing something like DOTA or HOTS than TF2 ever has. That doesn't make OW a MOBA, but it very clearly and plentifully draws on that genre as an FPS.
The games Gigantic by Motiga, and Battleborn by Gearbox are in the same boat. Gigantic is the most MOBA like while Overwatch is a cross with TF2, and Battleborn is a cross with Borderlands (in story delivery).
This and creeps are my least favorite aspect of mobas. I think it's supposed to add complexity but I think it more waters down the product. Whenever I face another person I want us to be on the same footing not necessarily oh his ult is on cooldown attack now mind of stuff.
Also what are they at like 20 heroes where map size is 12 people. So a good number of heroes or whatever can't be used in any given game.
Ults in this game aren't really "press button to win" kind of things. They vary a lot depending on the character, and not all of them are damage-dealing. When I run into a player that fires off their ult, it rarely feels like an "I'm doomed" kind of moment. Ults in Overwatch can be countered as well with smart play.
Also, I wouldn't really say that Overwatch has "lanes", per se. Maps feel like TF2 in a sense that there's a main route with a few alternates to help get around the bottlenecks. Doesn't make a huge difference, but just stating for those on the fence about "MOBA" vs. "TF2".
New round of invites went out for a big beta weekend. Got mine. Aww yiss.
I can not describe the feeling I have about this. My want to play this game dwindles with every post I see of others getting into the beta and I don't know why. I've always been able to not give a shit in the past. Why you do dis Blizzard? Why? GIBBI stress test access! I Know U HAZ!
It's too late. The instant I heard that any aspect of it was MOBA-like my interest in the title declined to 0%
You're missing out.
Anyone who enjoys TF2 will feel right at home in this game, and the meta-game is considerably more interesting.
Seriously, I think the "moba" qualities are being overblown. This game feels like a faster version of TF2 with better graphics. The only main difference is the "ult" that isn't an instant win, but certainly stronger than "normal" play.
Try thinking of it this way:
In TF2 the different strengths and options in the weapons allow you to alter the gameplay of the class. Effectively making sub-classes or in some cases all new classes (Demo Knight) but all still in 1 character.
In Overwatch, those same "loadouts" are static and assigned to 1 character each. All the other moba-esque shooters have had their keybindings set so that it still feels like a shooter very much. Left-click to main attack, right click to secondary. Other 2 keys near WASD for the 3rd and the Ult, similar to say a grenade key. I would imagine it's similar in Overwatch.
I haven't been able to play yet so I'm not 100% on their abilities, but there are 3 Demoman-esque characters in Overwatch. 1 basic grenadier who can also fly (Pharah), 1 sticky grenadier who can also sticky jump (Junkrat), and 1 being the charge & melee nut (Reinhardt).
You kinda just highlighted one of my least favorite aspects of the new TF2.