SimGuy had this to say Not in this thread please Geeky. Lets keep this debate on track and get to the bottom of the Catalyst 3.8 issues.
If you wish, create a new thread regarding the support structure of ATI and please discuss it there.
He was, infact, just answering a question CM asked, as shown below.
By the way one final question. Since you are warning people to not use CATALYST 3.8 and all that, just wondering how come you didnt let us at ATI know about your findings?
Mr. Makedon, no offense, but I’ll bet that a lot of people haven’t contacted ATi directly is because quite frankly, ATi's tech support is, in a word, crappy
And further explanations were given on both sides, so, it is infact, still completely on topic.
honestplayer had this to say i for one am totally pissed if in fact this was nvidia BS all along. i did a reinstall of 2 of my 4 machines with an ATI 9500 and the other an ATI 9800 PRO with windows since installing the 3.8 catalyst drivers. i wasn't sure what was happening so i reinstalled windows just to be sure with the previous 3.7 catalyst drivers.
all i can say is that as someone who owns TWO FRIGGIN EXPENSIVE NVIDIA NFORCE video cards on my other machines, i will toss them or never buy another NVIDIA card as long as i live if all this was some BS stunt by NVIDIA.
in addition, i would contact ATI to encourage them SUE THE HECK outta everyone who falsely posted or pretended to defame ATI in this mess.
no doubt, this bad publicity hurt ATI financially in some manner with its customers and potential market - so all of us who may be getting blindsided by a potential FRAUD - deserve some payback.
the evidence is on the posts of several forums - and i think a good attorney can make a solid case for fraud and defamation if in fact, there is little evidence to prove ATI was a fault.
given that many ppl, including me, make buying decisions on hardware in these forums this is very reasonable and plausible. i would welcome ATI to contact me or use me in any fashion to help their case if this was fraud.
honestplayer, First let me say welcome to our forum.
I would not go as far as to say this is NVIDIA BS. Please feel free to look around. You will find that most of our users and staff all use ATI cards and are very happy with them. I am delighted with my ATI 9800 Pro. It is amazing since my last card was a crappy geforce 4 MX. We now have a direct contact with ATI who is in contact with our own SimGuy about this. Lets hope that this can be resolved quickly.
Interesting. I'm giving consideration to installing the 3.8s. I'm not sure thought that I want to weigh the risk of losing $600 in hardware (Nec 19" crt + Radeon9800pro256).
I realize that you guys have done plenty of testing, i'm sure before the drivers were released there were numerous tests done for stabilty, that ati would never release a driver that they believe would cause a recall. Also I remember simguy making a statement about never noticing any problems with the beta 3.8's.
It's like if i'm hanging out with my friends. One friend goes outside to get something from his car. MY other friend tells me he got mugged and lost $600. While a cop says no way man i just went out there and I didn't see a mugger. Only way i'll go out there is if the cop holds my freaking hand the whole way. In ati's case, if you honor rma's on this. But with the amount of consumers using ati cards, i don't believe my personal account will be taken seriously. Usually when I call most companies and tell about this any problem they usually assume it was the user who was at fault. Oh... ya plus i took the gpu shim off of my card soo.... no warranty for me
/me wishes he was on the ATi catalyst team
Don't worry Terry, we all still love ati. When you guys comes out with a series of cards like the r9500,9600, 9700, and 9800 our sexual inhibitions seem to melt away , similar to the geforce 4 line of cards.
On another note, been running Cat 3.8's on this machine for 3 days (R9700 Pro, 15" monitor) and on my Laptop since they were released (M9, 15.1" LCD) and have not had any issues.
April 2003: Bought 9700 Pro
July 2003: Card Died
August 2003: Received replacement 9700 Pro but it was actually a 9500
August 2003: ATI replaced 9500 with proper 9700 Pro
Sept 2003: Memory leak confirmed by ATI on 9700 Pro
Oct 2003: Received new 9700 Pro from ATI
Oct 2003: Here I am
Well, that is just my brief history with ATI and after this latest round, I am really not having fun any more.
I installed the new 9700 Pro from ATI on the weekend. I also installed the 3.8's at the same time.
Ran GTA 4 and had a MS error come up within 20 minutes stating error with monitor signal. Also noticed during game play fragments all over my screen.
Each time I have tried to run anything, I get these fragments.
Read this thread by way of another site, scared to death to loose my monitor so I called ATI.
Really was not helpful at all - in fact, if I were to guess, I don't think I was the first person to call about this, he did seem very aware and almost frustrated with this problem.
Shoved me off to the first person I dealt with back in July who of course is not there now since it is off his shift and thus the waiting game begins again.
Regardless of what is the outcome from this latest event, I am all done with ATI.
honestplayer, First let me say welcome to our forum.
I would not go as far as to say this is NVIDIA BS. Please feel free to look around. You will find that most of our users and staff all use ATI cards and are very happy with them. I am delighted with my ATI 9800 Pro. It is amazing since my last card was a crappy geforce 4 MX. We now have a direct contact with ATI who is in contact with our own SimGuy about this. Lets hope that this can be resolved quickly.
thanks, sry 'bout the rampage...
i have seen stuff about the 3.8 cat drivers on alot of forums now, yet not one person has produced any real evidence (ie: photos, RMAs, or something that would hold up to scrutiny) of a blown monitor or video card?
in addition, the timing of all this is coming on the heels of an NVIDIA demonstration this week attacking ATI and unleashing a new line of video cards, makes me real suspicious that something is amuck. given the nasty and many times unethical tactics in the video card war, a stealth campaign (unlike the one MS tried to squash LINUX) in hardware forums like these, where ppl who read these can spend fortunes of hardware dollars every year, seems very real.
and ultimately we the consumers get ripped - i have both ATI and NVIDIA cards - and through experience with both, end up using ATI like 80% of the time. i have also bought ATI cards for my workplace and highly recommend it now to ppl i know who don't blink at the thought of spending $500 for a card like i do.
so spreading a rumour and having noobs switch the blame from OC'ing their cards and using cheap monitors - to blaming ATI, would make me very mad. esp since ATI seems to really be doing a better job with their drivers now than NVIDIA.
consumers are misinformed, make bad decisions, and end up with inferior cards and drivers. others like me, panic and spend considerable time uninstalling and questioning otherwise solid updated drivers. we lose.
i already know of 2 people holding off purchases of new ATI 9800XT video cards because of this - they are worried because you supposedly cant use older ATI drivers on the new cards.
so who is trying to win in this mess?
sry going so long about this, but i remain very skeptical.
thanks guys, now lets go on and talk about one of my 2.4 P4's running at 3.5ghz
I can vouch that none of us here at Short-Media would try to create a scandel such as one described as above. We as a tech site try our best to inform our readers of anything and everything about computer hardware including the drivers.
I myself own a Radeon and will continue to own ATI based products because of their quality. The last thing we would want from this is for ATI to gain negative prublicity from this.
honestplayer had this to say
i have seen stuff about the 3.8 cat drivers on alot of forums now, yet not one person has produced any real evidence (ie: photos, RMAs, or something that would hold up to scrutiny) of a blown monitor or video card?
I'm willing to show you some photos I JUST took for this thread, I dunno how much "proof" it can offer you other than the fact that I'm showing you the monitor that I'm telling you no longer works, so here it goes.
This is my 17" ProView Monitor (aquired January 2002) that no longer functions because of previously mentioned problems, as earlier stated, flickered at weird times when running games etc for a few days before finally dying just hours after I discovered this thread and reverted back to the 3.7s
Monitor on the right is a 1996 Aurora Vision 15" monitor who's pixels have become so diffused that it's very difficult to read text even at resolutions like 800x600, this monitor I had to use yesterday after my ProView 17" died.
The monitor on the left is an HP Pavilion 17" monitor that I just picked up from a friend of mine a few hours ago so that I'll have something half way decent to use while I'm deciding on a new monitor.
Fix your Comment form on your site and you might get even more feedback:
It's not just the comment form that is broken; it's the base tech support folks. A while ago (I don't know if it's fixed now because I don't play AC2 any more) Pixel Shaders could not be run with ATi cards because of the Catalyst drivers (this is around Cat 3.1-3.2 time). I sent a message throught the form into ATI tech support. My message was something like:
"Asheron's Call 2 cannot be run with Pixel Shaders turned on because, according to AC2 tech support, there is an error in the Catalyst Driver. I have looked at all ATi FAQs covering similar problems, none of the solutions worked for me. No FAQ provided any information that is apropos to AC2. When will a Catalyst driver be released with a fix for Pixel Shaders in AC2?"
The response from ATi tech support was something like this:
"Thank you for your feedback. Please visit our FAQ www.blahblahblahjunk for more information." And the FAQ it referred to was one of the useless ones I'd already visited.
This inability to resolve problems presented through the online forms is probably why, Terry, nobody in your organization contacted you about the users' reports of technical problems; the users were probably referred to FAQs that don't even relate to the problem, and then the support tickets were closed without anything being resolved.
I'd also like to say that this issue is not going to make me stop using ATI video cards. I'm reluctant to switch to Catalyst 3.8 until some definite word about this is released (and not because I believe it will blow out my monitor; I think that's hooey), but I don't know whether or not I'll have heat problems. I plan on sticking with Cat 3.7 until I see something. Never would I consider switching to nVidia unless they put out a quality product again.
honestplayer, I hope you're not inferring by your first post that anybody related to Short-Media would even dream of participating in an unjustified smear campaign against any manufacturer, particularly one with as much support on S-M as ATI has. I know the integrity of the staff here is unparalleled anywhere. S-M is one of the most impartial sites in the tech category, and as long as the staff remains the same, I'm sure the site will remain as impartial as possible also.
New folks, welcome to the forums. Feel free to visit the whole site rather than just this one thread. We're always here to welcome you!
May I remind everyone that a unique opportunity presents itself at the moment.
There is proof that ATI IS paying attention to your comments. The ATI folks who design and engineer the Catalyst product ARE reading this thread.
They are very focussed on looking into this matter. This is about an alleged issue and I suggest we stay focussed on that. Anyone who thinks they have experienced this issue can email me at mediaman@short-media.com or PM me. I will make sure that ATI gets your contact information and follow up with them to make sure they follow up with you.
They are very interested in speaking with those individuals directly related to this issue in order to assist and investigate. They want to help and gather as much data...just like us.
Please refrain from non-related issues and please welcome ATI representatives as they are here to help. This is pretty personal tech support from what I can see.
I have been in contact with ATI over the past few days. The alledged issue is being taken very seriously and they are attempting to determine what could be the cause. I'm sure ATI does not mean to infer or make broad sweeping statements that people who have experienced problems in SM are doing so with any malicous or wrongful intent.
There remains the opportunity to have direct tech support on this alleged issue in order to trace its possible cause.
Nobody is in the wrong and I just want to keep this thread on track and see what SM can do to assist in getting answers.
I mean really...we are the best forum on the planet and we get personal service from people like ATI...cmon...where else but with the best forum people.
This is my 17" ProView Monitor (aquired January 2002) that no longer functions because of previously mentioned problems, as earlier stated, flickered at weird times when running games etc for a few days before finally dying just hours after I discovered this thread and reverted back to the 3.7s
no disrespect intended - but you know that alot of ppl have had problems with proview monitors. they arent what anyone could call defect free or capable of handling newer hardware:
and eopinions kinda give them like a 1 on a scale of 1 to 5 on reliability and service.
i ran games including 2 LAN parties (12-20 hours straight gaming) on the ATI 3.8 drivers on an NEC 19" LCD monitor (60 Hertz max!) before giving in to the hype and moving back to the 3.7 Cats. In addition, I had the 3.8 Cats on my home file server running non-stop for over a week on an older Princeton 21" CRT monitor at 75 Hertz. those arent what i would call monitors that can take the 200 Hertz that people are saying the 3.8 Cats give out.
but i didn't OC and push my video card or monitors higher than specs. which probably explains why i didnt have problems - truth is if you look up "flickering monitor" on google you'll find like 25000 hits and 25000 people all saying it was installing new drivers, whether they are NVIDIA or ATI. so what you are saying is nothing new in the broader context - its not an isolated event to just one driver.
i am gonna try running the 3.8 Cats on an old 15 inch monitor and extra shuttle XPS i have lying around with a Radeon 9500PRO. just for fun to see what happens.
I tried taking screen shots in GTA 4 that prove the fragmenting but each time I hit the Print of course the montior seems to clear but I did mangae to get about 5 or six. Here are a couple of them...
no disrespect intended - but you know that alot of ppl have had problems with proview monitors. they arent what anyone could call defect free or capable of handling newer hardware:
those arent what i would call monitors that can take the 200 Hertz that people are saying the 3.8 Cats give out.
but i didn't OC and push my video card or monitors higher than specs.
I understand what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is, I ran my Radeon 9700 Pro on this monitor for a solid 9 months (I got the card in January 2003) with no problems at all, never ever seeing the symptons I saw after upgrading to the Catalyst 3.8s.
And you bring up an interesting point. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "not a monitor that can handle the 200 hertz the 3.8s put out" but thats exactly the point of this whole thread....my refresh rate was set at the standard 60hz as it always has been, why should the cat 3.8s cause output at any other refresh rate than that? That's exactly what WOULD cause damage to a monitor. Keep in mind also, that I'm very cautious when I spend over $300 on a video card (like my current one..) so I've never even attempted to overclock it. For the last 9 months everything about this sytem has been running bone stock with no problems.
LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited October 2003
The last thing we would want from this is for ATI to gain negative prublicity from this.
Afraid it's too late for that. But, a serious question has been raised, and we will do our best to be objective about it. All the points I wanted to make have been made already. I'm in observation mode. S-M members, thanks for being gentlemen about this and respecting the persons making differing viewpoints.
You guys are great. Together, we'll get to the bottom of this.
yup, I installed the 3.8s on my AthlonXP 2100 system running WindowsXP Pro w/ a Radeon 9700 Pro (I got this card in Jan. 2003, so I dunno if anything on it has changed since then, thought maybe that iinfo could help out.)
Well all I have a new update to post.
I decided to put on the 3.8's but I uninstalled everything concerning ati. I installed just like normal, an got tv+mmc+3.8+remote wonder and whatever else is needed. Right now, this time around, I have gone past my hour limit where it loses signal, and now I am at 2 1/2 hours. Not sure exactly what is going on now, has me VERY VERY confused and puzzled. I am going to leave it run for a good 24hrs or better, and see if it
happens. So far it's all going fine this go around. I honestly did not make this up, or make ati out to look bad or anything
like that, this really DID happen, and I did do a very long hours of testing with different stuff, and got the same result. I just hope you people and Terry, or anyone on the many forums I posted on think I was makeing this all up, just to get the attn of others or to make ati look bad or whatever else, that wasn't my intention.
This really has me completely baffled right now. If I do have the issue again I will record it before makeing a post though.
As for the monitor being ruined or heat issues, I to have not had any of this happen at all. My temps are the same as if I used the 3.5 catalyst drivers and my games all seem to ahve no visual glitches and run fine. This really makes me look like a liar, wich I really don't go around doing on purpose, that's just not my way, so I sure hope it's not taken in this way .
Also the fact I'm not jsut some newb or kid that tinkers with pc's now and then, I have been doing and been around and fixing pc's, for around 20 some years now, I started at around 18yrs of age, so I'm about 20yrs experienced with pc's. I don't know everything there is to know and I don't claim to, but I do know enuff that I'm not newb to pc's, and this just shows differently
obviously not knowing I might need it later, I deleted the driver installation package, but, I downloaded it sometime last week, I'm not sure of the exact date, but I'm sure it was before the weekend, so I supposed it would be more beneficial to go with the older driver, does that make sense?
MediaMan had this to say May I remind everyone that a unique opportunity presents itself at the moment.
There is proof that ATI IS paying attention to your comments. The ATI folks who design and engineer the Catalyst product ARE reading this thread.
They are very focussed on looking into this matter. This is about an alleged issue and I suggest we stay focussed on that. Anyone who thinks they have experienced this issue can email me at mediaman@short-media.com or PM me. I will make sure that ATI gets your contact information and follow up with them to make sure they follow up with you.
They are very interested in speaking with those individuals directly related to this issue in order to assist and investigate. They want to help and gather as much data...just like us.
Please refrain from non-related issues and please welcome ATI representatives as they are here to help. This is pretty personal tech support from what I can see.
I have been in contact with ATI over the past few days. The alledged issue is being taken very seriously and they are attempting to determine what could be the cause. I'm sure ATI does not mean to infer or make broad sweeping statements that people who have experienced problems in SM are doing so with any malicous or wrongful intent.
There remains the opportunity to have direct tech support on this alleged issue in order to trace its possible cause.
Nobody is in the wrong and I just want to keep this thread on track and see what SM can do to assist in getting answers.
I mean really...we are the best forum on the planet and we get personal service from people like ATI...cmon...where else but with the best forum people.
First off, Mr. Makedon ought to email or pm the dozen or so folks (I didn't count them) in the stickied "dying monitor" thread at Rage3d (he knows which one it is) who have reported this problem for their input in addition to whatever this forum can contribute.
Second, I know ATi and Mr. Makedon are very upset about seeing the fruits of their very hard work being systematically trashed over the internet. But that is no excuse for him for coming into this forum and branding the forum and the forum members who reported this problem as rumor-mongers and, in essence, liars. I hope that when the dust finally settles on these issues, there'll be some apologies given.
LeonardoWake up and smell the glaciersEagle River, AlaskaIcrontian
edited October 2003
This really makes me look like a liar, wich I really don't go around doing on purpose, that's just not my way, so I sure hope it's not taken in this way
No, you didn't and don't look like a liar. Thanks for your reinstallation and monitoring. Your info will be appreciated.
shwaip had this to say can you check the temps as well MM?
My temps are no different than the 3.5's were, same thing, and I ahve run alot of tests, can't seem to replicate the heat issue on this end, Only thing I had was tv+mmc+3.8 cats, and I'de lose signal to the monitor. I have yet to replicate heat issue or game issues. I've been installing games as I see them posted a problem with in forums posts, so far no visual glitches or problems with any game I've tried. Saw a few gta vice city issues, but I can't replicate it on this end.
Wish I could help more, bu I'm not sure what else ta do, sorry.
I'll install games if I don't have them already, as I see problems with to see if I can replicate it.
Set second boot device to CDROM
set third boot device to HDD-0
FULL SCREEN LOGO SHOW disabled
Speech Post Reporter disabled
POST COMPLETE REPORT disabled
ADVANCED CHIPSET FEATURES
Graphics Aperature size 128 MB
INTEGRATED PERIPHERALS
Primary VGA BIOS agp vga card
USB Keyboard and legacy support ENABLED
USB legacy mouse support ENABLED
Onboard MIDI I/O disabled
That's all that I changed in BIOS.
I've taped a temperature probe which is not ideal laboratory but it gives a reading nonetheless. It is taped to the backside (non-fan side) of the GPU.
Right now as windows is formatting in the install stage it reads 47.2 C after being on less than 3 minutes in an ambient room of 25.6 C. There is a single 80mm exhaust and the CNPS7000A Heatsink and of course the Enermax dual fan PSU.
This is NOT scientific by any means.
WINDOWS INSTALLED
Hack job temperature probe 49.0 C
SP1 going in
Hack job temperature probe 48.8 C
NFORCE 2.45 drivers in place complete install.
Hack job temperature probe 48.9 C (after 1 hour...dinner break)
Catalyst 3.8 drivers in.
Hack job temperature probe 48.2 C
Monitor identified as Default Monitor at 640x480 60 Hertz.
Manually switched to 1024x768 75Hz and installed Samsung SyncMaster sm950p(T) drivers from OS. As I have always done from the beginning of time with this card. I have the Syncmaster 950P 19" Monitor.
Nothing go kablooey yet.
Running 3D Mark 2001 SE on DX8.1 now. All tests from 640x480 to 1200x1600.
could there be any chance per say that you just tried to overwrite the 3.7 cat drivers or some portions of ATI control panel remained when you installed the 3.8 cats?
woo hoo
maybe there is something in what you did which finally explains this all.
when i installed my 3.8's i did what i usually do, run uninstall on all previous drivers from windows control panel "uninstall programs" windows and then delete the ATI folder in program files? maybe that was why i didnt have any problems?
update: i just got home from work - gonna try the experiment too on a clean windows xp install tonight. specs are:
shuttle XPS via 266
2400 XP
Radeon 9500pro/128 meg
512 corsair pc 3200
200 gig maxtor hard drive
d-link gig card
21" princeton EO2100 monitor
hmmm - this should be interesting and hopefully restore my confidence for 3.9 cats when they come out in a month -or ???????? :banghead:
Comments
He was, infact, just answering a question CM asked, as shown below.
And further explanations were given on both sides, so, it is infact, still completely on topic.
NS
honestplayer, First let me say welcome to our forum.
I would not go as far as to say this is NVIDIA BS. Please feel free to look around. You will find that most of our users and staff all use ATI cards and are very happy with them. I am delighted with my ATI 9800 Pro. It is amazing since my last card was a crappy geforce 4 MX. We now have a direct contact with ATI who is in contact with our own SimGuy about this. Lets hope that this can be resolved quickly.
I realize that you guys have done plenty of testing, i'm sure before the drivers were released there were numerous tests done for stabilty, that ati would never release a driver that they believe would cause a recall. Also I remember simguy making a statement about never noticing any problems with the beta 3.8's.
It's like if i'm hanging out with my friends. One friend goes outside to get something from his car. MY other friend tells me he got mugged and lost $600. While a cop says no way man i just went out there and I didn't see a mugger. Only way i'll go out there is if the cop holds my freaking hand the whole way. In ati's case, if you honor rma's on this. But with the amount of consumers using ati cards, i don't believe my personal account will be taken seriously. Usually when I call most companies and tell about this any problem they usually assume it was the user who was at fault. Oh... ya plus i took the gpu shim off of my card soo.... no warranty for me
/me wishes he was on the ATi catalyst team
Don't worry Terry, we all still love ati. When you guys comes out with a series of cards like the r9500,9600, 9700, and 9800 our sexual inhibitions seem to melt away
NS
July 2003: Card Died
August 2003: Received replacement 9700 Pro but it was actually a 9500
August 2003: ATI replaced 9500 with proper 9700 Pro
Sept 2003: Memory leak confirmed by ATI on 9700 Pro
Oct 2003: Received new 9700 Pro from ATI
Oct 2003: Here I am
Well, that is just my brief history with ATI and after this latest round, I am really not having fun any more.
I installed the new 9700 Pro from ATI on the weekend. I also installed the 3.8's at the same time.
Ran GTA 4 and had a MS error come up within 20 minutes stating error with monitor signal. Also noticed during game play fragments all over my screen.
Each time I have tried to run anything, I get these fragments.
Read this thread by way of another site, scared to death to loose my monitor so I called ATI.
Really was not helpful at all - in fact, if I were to guess, I don't think I was the first person to call about this, he did seem very aware and almost frustrated with this problem.
Shoved me off to the first person I dealt with back in July who of course is not there now since it is off his shift and thus the waiting game begins again.
Regardless of what is the outcome from this latest event, I am all done with ATI.
thanks, sry 'bout the rampage...
i have seen stuff about the 3.8 cat drivers on alot of forums now, yet not one person has produced any real evidence (ie: photos, RMAs, or something that would hold up to scrutiny) of a blown monitor or video card?
in addition, the timing of all this is coming on the heels of an NVIDIA demonstration this week attacking ATI and unleashing a new line of video cards, makes me real suspicious that something is amuck. given the nasty and many times unethical tactics in the video card war, a stealth campaign (unlike the one MS tried to squash LINUX) in hardware forums like these, where ppl who read these can spend fortunes of hardware dollars every year, seems very real.
and ultimately we the consumers get ripped - i have both ATI and NVIDIA cards - and through experience with both, end up using ATI like 80% of the time. i have also bought ATI cards for my workplace and highly recommend it now to ppl i know who don't blink at the thought of spending $500 for a card like i do.
so spreading a rumour and having noobs switch the blame from OC'ing their cards and using cheap monitors - to blaming ATI, would make me very mad. esp since ATI seems to really be doing a better job with their drivers now than NVIDIA.
consumers are misinformed, make bad decisions, and end up with inferior cards and drivers. others like me, panic and spend considerable time uninstalling and questioning otherwise solid updated drivers. we lose.
i already know of 2 people holding off purchases of new ATI 9800XT video cards because of this - they are worried because you supposedly cant use older ATI drivers on the new cards.
so who is trying to win in this mess?
sry going so long about this, but i remain very skeptical.
thanks guys, now lets go on and talk about one of my 2.4 P4's running at 3.5ghz
I myself own a Radeon and will continue to own ATI based products because of their quality. The last thing we would want from this is for ATI to gain negative prublicity from this.
Fix your Comment form on your site and you might get even more feedback:
http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/confirmation.asp
ADODB.Command error '800a0d5d'
Application uses a value of the wrong type for the current operation.
/driverfeedback/datasource.asp, line 282
I'm willing to show you some photos I JUST took for this thread, I dunno how much "proof" it can offer you other than the fact that I'm showing you the monitor that I'm telling you no longer works, so here it goes.
This is my 17" ProView Monitor (aquired January 2002) that no longer functions because of previously mentioned problems, as earlier stated, flickered at weird times when running games etc for a few days before finally dying just hours after I discovered this thread and reverted back to the 3.7s
The monitor on the left is an HP Pavilion 17" monitor that I just picked up from a friend of mine a few hours ago so that I'll have something half way decent to use while I'm deciding on a new monitor.
Don't know if that's the kind of "proof" you're looking for when you say 'photos, etc', but hey, it's a start, right?
It's not just the comment form that is broken; it's the base tech support folks. A while ago (I don't know if it's fixed now because I don't play AC2 any more) Pixel Shaders could not be run with ATi cards because of the Catalyst drivers (this is around Cat 3.1-3.2 time). I sent a message throught the form into ATI tech support. My message was something like:
"Asheron's Call 2 cannot be run with Pixel Shaders turned on because, according to AC2 tech support, there is an error in the Catalyst Driver. I have looked at all ATi FAQs covering similar problems, none of the solutions worked for me. No FAQ provided any information that is apropos to AC2. When will a Catalyst driver be released with a fix for Pixel Shaders in AC2?"
The response from ATi tech support was something like this:
"Thank you for your feedback. Please visit our FAQ www.blahblahblahjunk for more information." And the FAQ it referred to was one of the useless ones I'd already visited.
This inability to resolve problems presented through the online forms is probably why, Terry, nobody in your organization contacted you about the users' reports of technical problems; the users were probably referred to FAQs that don't even relate to the problem, and then the support tickets were closed without anything being resolved.
I'd also like to say that this issue is not going to make me stop using ATI video cards. I'm reluctant to switch to Catalyst 3.8 until some definite word about this is released (and not because I believe it will blow out my monitor; I think that's hooey), but I don't know whether or not I'll have heat problems. I plan on sticking with Cat 3.7 until I see something. Never would I consider switching to nVidia unless they put out a quality product again.
honestplayer, I hope you're not inferring by your first post that anybody related to Short-Media would even dream of participating in an unjustified smear campaign against any manufacturer, particularly one with as much support on S-M as ATI has. I know the integrity of the staff here is unparalleled anywhere. S-M is one of the most impartial sites in the tech category, and as long as the staff remains the same, I'm sure the site will remain as impartial as possible also.
New folks, welcome to the forums. Feel free to visit the whole site rather than just this one thread. We're always here to welcome you!
There is proof that ATI IS paying attention to your comments. The ATI folks who design and engineer the Catalyst product ARE reading this thread.
They are very focussed on looking into this matter. This is about an alleged issue and I suggest we stay focussed on that. Anyone who thinks they have experienced this issue can email me at mediaman@short-media.com or PM me. I will make sure that ATI gets your contact information and follow up with them to make sure they follow up with you.
They are very interested in speaking with those individuals directly related to this issue in order to assist and investigate. They want to help and gather as much data...just like us.
Please refrain from non-related issues and please welcome ATI representatives as they are here to help. This is pretty personal tech support from what I can see.
I have been in contact with ATI over the past few days. The alledged issue is being taken very seriously and they are attempting to determine what could be the cause. I'm sure ATI does not mean to infer or make broad sweeping statements that people who have experienced problems in SM are doing so with any malicous or wrongful intent.
There remains the opportunity to have direct tech support on this alleged issue in order to trace its possible cause.
Nobody is in the wrong and I just want to keep this thread on track and see what SM can do to assist in getting answers.
I mean really...we are the best forum on the planet and we get personal service from people like ATI...cmon...where else but with the best forum people.
no disrespect intended - but you know that alot of ppl have had problems with proview monitors. they arent what anyone could call defect free or capable of handling newer hardware:
http://tomshardware.bizrate.com/,mpr__cat_id--416,prod_id--6287897,rf--wgg.html
and eopinions kinda give them like a 1 on a scale of 1 to 5 on reliability and service.
i ran games including 2 LAN parties (12-20 hours straight gaming) on the ATI 3.8 drivers on an NEC 19" LCD monitor (60 Hertz max!) before giving in to the hype and moving back to the 3.7 Cats. In addition, I had the 3.8 Cats on my home file server running non-stop for over a week on an older Princeton 21" CRT monitor at 75 Hertz. those arent what i would call monitors that can take the 200 Hertz that people are saying the 3.8 Cats give out.
but i didn't OC and push my video card or monitors higher than specs. which probably explains why i didnt have problems - truth is if you look up "flickering monitor" on google you'll find like 25000 hits and 25000 people all saying it was installing new drivers, whether they are NVIDIA or ATI. so what you are saying is nothing new in the broader context - its not an isolated event to just one driver.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&client=REAL-tb&q=flickering+monitor
i am gonna try running the 3.8 Cats on an old 15 inch monitor and extra shuttle XPS i have lying around with a Radeon 9500PRO. just for fun to see what happens.
I understand what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is, I ran my Radeon 9700 Pro on this monitor for a solid 9 months (I got the card in January 2003) with no problems at all, never ever seeing the symptons I saw after upgrading to the Catalyst 3.8s.
And you bring up an interesting point. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "not a monitor that can handle the 200 hertz the 3.8s put out" but thats exactly the point of this whole thread....my refresh rate was set at the standard 60hz as it always has been, why should the cat 3.8s cause output at any other refresh rate than that? That's exactly what WOULD cause damage to a monitor. Keep in mind also, that I'm very cautious when I spend over $300 on a video card (like my current one..) so I've never even attempted to overclock it. For the last 9 months everything about this sytem has been running bone stock with no problems.
Afraid it's too late for that. But, a serious question has been raised, and we will do our best to be objective about it. All the points I wanted to make have been made already. I'm in observation mode. S-M members, thanks for being gentlemen about this and respecting the persons making differing viewpoints.
You guys are great. Together, we'll get to the bottom of this.
Leo
If so I'll fire the Cat 3.8's into mine right now and see what happens.
A7N8X Rev 1.3
2 x 256 MB Corsair DDR 400 XMS memory
AMD 3200+
Zalman CNPS7000A heatsink
Koolcases Silver Fusion
Enermax 465 PSU
Win XP SP1 updated with latest patches from Windows Update
DX9
NVIDIA 2.45 Unified NFORCE2 drivers
If anything should happen it seems I know who to call.
I decided to put on the 3.8's but I uninstalled everything concerning ati. I installed just like normal, an got tv+mmc+3.8+remote wonder and whatever else is needed. Right now, this time around, I have gone past my hour limit where it loses signal, and now I am at 2 1/2 hours. Not sure exactly what is going on now, has me VERY VERY confused and puzzled. I am going to leave it run for a good 24hrs or better, and see if it
happens. So far it's all going fine this go around. I honestly did not make this up, or make ati out to look bad or anything
like that, this really DID happen, and I did do a very long hours of testing with different stuff, and got the same result. I just hope you people and Terry, or anyone on the many forums I posted on think I was makeing this all up, just to get the attn of others or to make ati look bad or whatever else, that wasn't my intention.
This really has me completely baffled right now. If I do have the issue again I will record it before makeing a post though.
As for the monitor being ruined or heat issues, I to have not had any of this happen at all. My temps are the same as if I used the 3.5 catalyst drivers and my games all seem to ahve no visual glitches and run fine. This really makes me look like a liar, wich I really don't go around doing on purpose, that's just not my way, so I sure hope it's not taken in this way
Also the fact I'm not jsut some newb or kid that tinkers with pc's now and then, I have been doing and been around and fixing pc's, for around 20 some years now, I started at around 18yrs of age, so I'm about 20yrs experienced with pc's. I don't know everything there is to know and I don't claim to, but I do know enuff that I'm not newb to pc's, and this just shows differently
Regards
easyrider
wxp-w2k-catalyst-7-93-030812a1-010735c-efg
ver 4.0.100.1190
Downloaded Sunday, October 19th. 2003 4:16:14 PM (PST)
And one I just downloaded now from the ATI site
http://www.ati.com/support/drivers/winxp/radeonwdm-xp.html?type=xp&prodType=graphic&prod=productsXPdriver&submit.x=9&submit.y=9
wxp-w2k-catalyst-7-94-030917m-011434c
ver 4.0.100.1190
Downloaded Today, October 21, 2003, 6:19:25 PM
Which one would you like me to use? I will do a clean install of XP.
I will wipe the drives and clean install XP and update it to but not including DX9.
I'll run some benchmarks...or 50 then seee what happens. Then I'll bump up to DX9 and repeat.
PS: If anyone hears a loud explosion from the west coast...perhaps you'd like to send an ambulance.
Why they are different numbers is of interest. Would anyone like to shed light on this matter?
First off, Mr. Makedon ought to email or pm the dozen or so folks (I didn't count them) in the stickied "dying monitor" thread at Rage3d (he knows which one it is) who have reported this problem for their input in addition to whatever this forum can contribute.
Second, I know ATi and Mr. Makedon are very upset about seeing the fruits of their very hard work being systematically trashed over the internet. But that is no excuse for him for coming into this forum and branding the forum and the forum members who reported this problem as rumor-mongers and, in essence, liars. I hope that when the dust finally settles on these issues, there'll be some apologies given.
No, you didn't and don't look like a liar. Thanks for your reinstallation and monitoring. Your info will be appreciated.
My temps are no different than the 3.5's were, same thing, and I ahve run alot of tests, can't seem to replicate the heat issue on this end, Only thing I had was tv+mmc+3.8 cats, and I'de lose signal to the monitor. I have yet to replicate heat issue or game issues. I've been installing games as I see them posted a problem with in forums posts, so far no visual glitches or problems with any game I've tried. Saw a few gta vice city issues, but I can't replicate it on this end.
Wish I could help more, bu I'm not sure what else ta do, sorry.
I'll install games if I don't have them already, as I see problems with to see if I can replicate it.
kidding...anyway windows going in now.
Asus A7N8X Deluxe rev 1.3
Load safe BIOS defaults.
MAIN set halt on to ALL, BUT KEYBOARD
ADVANCED BIOS FEATURES
Set second boot device to CDROM
set third boot device to HDD-0
FULL SCREEN LOGO SHOW disabled
Speech Post Reporter disabled
POST COMPLETE REPORT disabled
ADVANCED CHIPSET FEATURES
Graphics Aperature size 128 MB
INTEGRATED PERIPHERALS
Primary VGA BIOS agp vga card
USB Keyboard and legacy support ENABLED
USB legacy mouse support ENABLED
Onboard MIDI I/O disabled
That's all that I changed in BIOS.
I've taped a temperature probe which is not ideal laboratory but it gives a reading nonetheless. It is taped to the backside (non-fan side) of the GPU.
Right now as windows is formatting in the install stage it reads 47.2 C after being on less than 3 minutes in an ambient room of 25.6 C. There is a single 80mm exhaust and the CNPS7000A Heatsink and of course the Enermax dual fan PSU.
This is NOT scientific by any means.
WINDOWS INSTALLED
Hack job temperature probe 49.0 C
SP1 going in
Hack job temperature probe 48.8 C
NFORCE 2.45 drivers in place complete install.
Hack job temperature probe 48.9 C (after 1 hour...dinner break)
Catalyst 3.8 drivers in.
Hack job temperature probe 48.2 C
Monitor identified as Default Monitor at 640x480 60 Hertz.
Manually switched to 1024x768 75Hz and installed Samsung SyncMaster sm950p(T) drivers from OS. As I have always done from the beginning of time with this card. I have the Syncmaster 950P 19" Monitor.
Nothing go kablooey yet.
Running 3D Mark 2001 SE on DX8.1 now. All tests from 640x480 to 1200x1600.
could there be any chance per say that you just tried to overwrite the 3.7 cat drivers or some portions of ATI control panel remained when you installed the 3.8 cats?
woo hoo
maybe there is something in what you did which finally explains this all.
when i installed my 3.8's i did what i usually do, run uninstall on all previous drivers from windows control panel "uninstall programs" windows and then delete the ATI folder in program files? maybe that was why i didnt have any problems?
update: i just got home from work - gonna try the experiment too on a clean windows xp install tonight. specs are:
shuttle XPS via 266
2400 XP
Radeon 9500pro/128 meg
512 corsair pc 3200
200 gig maxtor hard drive
d-link gig card
21" princeton EO2100 monitor
hmmm - this should be interesting and hopefully restore my confidence for 3.9 cats when they come out in a month -or ???????? :banghead: